Formal Proposal for Denmark Geographic Category Structure [closed]

Question

The Nordic Project is presenting the following proposal for the Danish geographic category structure for approval by the community.  Please provide comments and discussion below in an ANSWER.

Answer 1

Look fine to me - I allways include herred in my locations, partly due to the many sogn with same name, partly for search reasons, as people often stayed within the same herred.

The danish geographic structure as now have a lot of sogn missing.

Will be happy to help creating the categories for areas I am familiar with (most of Jylland)

Comments

Only create categories for locations if you have profiles for them. :-)

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Not sure I understand your comment. I have quite a large number of profiles where the sogn (or herred+sogn) category do not exsist. With my current knowledge I can not create them myself. Last time I asked for some new I was sent in to a loop with the then sleeping Nordic - and got nothing. Have more or less given up on using geographic categories.

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Once an agreed upon structure is in place, we're happy to help you set up categories for the profiles you have.  I'm sorry that you experienced some difficulties previously, but we are doing our best to get the Project back on track.

Answer 2

Looks good and logical to me.

Comments

But then I'm fairly ignorant concerning the administrative geography of Denmark.

Answer 3

Looks simple and easy to understand. Thanks, Amy (and Maggie!)

Answer 4

I think the best solution would be to follow The Danish National Archives' way of categorizing.  That said, I think it is a good idea to also include the hundred in the parish's name - Danish National Archives does that only when more parishes in the same country with the same name.

The reason I think we should copy the  Danish National  Archives is that they have the originals scans of church books etc. Other Danish genealogical search sites like Danish Family Search and Salldata is just shortcuts and we don't know how long they will be active or sold to commercial firms like Ancestry or My Heritage.

The reason I think it is a good idea to include the name of the hundred is that knowing the hundred makes it easier for you to find other documents at The National Archives like juridical acts and judgment.

The National Archives has chosen to "freeze" the counties from 1793 to 1970 and use them for categorization. I support that and see no reason why we should use another categorization before 1793 or after 1970 as proposed. Although maybe more correct it will make searching more difficult and create frustrations.

Comments

So, in short, you are OK with the category names including both sogn and herred prior to 1970 but when we come past 1970 we should not bother changing herred to kommune?

When you say "The National Archives has chosen to "freeze" the counties from 1793 to 1970 and use them for categorization." you mean archives available IRL? Because I think I read that the online archives at Rigsarkivet only goes as far as 1935.

Since the sogn, usually, belonged to the same herred prior to 1970, there will be only one category for "Børglum Sogn, Børglum Herred". However, the sogn category can have two parent categories, one named "Åstrup, Sejlstrup, Børglum Amt" and one named "Hjørring Amt", providing the proper amt for both the period 1662-1793 and 1794-1969.

Edited to add:

Found it; Her finder du kirkebøger fra hele Danmark frem til ca. 1935. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/collection/theme/1

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Yes, I am OK with the category including both sogn and herred from 1793 to 1970. And I suggest, that we keep it that way also after 1970, where herred wasn't used anymore and many counties were added together or had their name changed. The use of amter was finally ceased in 2006, while sogne are still the smallest administrative entity.

I also suggest, that before 1793 we use the same categorization. It is not Aastrup, Sejlstrup, Børglum Amt. It is either Aastrup Amt, or Sejlstrup Amt, or Børglum Amt, but it can be difficult to find the correct amt before 1793. I think that is the reason The Danish National Archives has chosen to use the 1793-1970 amt also before 1793. I participated in this year's Cleanathon and corrected several hundred errors, where Aastrup/Sejlstrup/Børglum was used because the profile manager couldn't find the correct amt and then gave free choice and used a slash /.

Maybe the description should be read as All church books are online up to 1935, but most of them up to 1960 for birth, confirmations, and marriages and up to 1969 for deaths. Normally they are up to 1960.

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I Agree in following the Danish National  Archives. But i think that we shall add all the Official "place names" below the Parish, as well.

Answer 5

If it requires votes, then yes, it looks like a good idea.

Comments

Voting will take place in the next step of the process.  The purpose of this post is to ensure we're getting feedback from the community and whether changes are necessary.  Thank you for your feedback.

Answer 6

I second Ole Selmer's suggestion to make everything consistent with the country's own system. That will make it much easier to go from one to the other seamlessly.

Also, I really really really hope you do not require capital first letters for the words amt, herred, etc, as implied by your examples. Please change it to allow lower case!

Comments

The only reason for capital letter in the Danish structure is that if it is written "Børglum sogn, Børglum herred", it will generate a category DB error 8029. If it is not done with capitals we will have to mark more than 2000 sogn/parish categories as "false suggestion", because they are not written "the American way".

Believe me, I have worked through the Swedish parish categories already existing, written in Swedish without capitals, when this error showed up and it is a really tedious job.

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And btw; correct Danish spelling has capital letters in names, so it should be sogne, herreder and amter with lower cases but Børglum Sogn, Børglum Herred, Hjørring Amt with capital letters.

But never mind, many Danes will have that wrong 

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Sigh.

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Then of course it is a problem with Wikitree that there is this "use their conventions instead of ours" principle and then in the same case flagging everything non-American as a problem...

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Words like 'in' and 'the' seem to be excepted from the all-capitals rule. So there is probably already an exception list in the code that flags this error. You could ask Aleš to add words like 'sogn', 'herred', etc. to this list.

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Of course the whole controversy could be avoided by having a drop-down "standard" choice that the user can click on after inputting their info, that will make everything uniform. And given Mary Jensen's good points, perhaps with different time-period designations, or possibly neighboring sogn included.

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Koen, if you ask Aleš to add words like 'sogn', 'herred', etc. to this list, I will ask him to add new York and united states to the list  

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Of course 'new York' is clearly a capitalization error.

I just wanted to suggest that you don't have to Americanize names to prevent flase errors. Aleš is helpful to improve his error checking.

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And by the way, don't blame America for the lower case errors. The U.S. actually also capitalizes County when used in a proper name. Blame genealogists who speed-type and don't capitalize or don't include the hered or sogn at all.

Answer 7

Questions:

1. How does the proposal intend to handle the issue of Herreder with the same name.  There are a few.  I'll try to find a few over the next week and give some examples.

2.  Please clarify what time period of amter the proposal intends to be grouped in the Amter categories.  There are presently no amter.  There were 3 major periods in which amter existed each of which is vastly different in how many there were and the geographic areas they covered. The periods were roughly 1) 1662-circa 1790, 2) circa 1790-1970, and 3) 1970-2006.  There are additional periods with variations, but this is enough for discussion purposes. 

2a. However, the names of amter in the 3 distinct periods are not unique.  The same name was reused in multiple time periods for considerably different geographic areas.  For example, many of the sogne that were in the Viborg Amt which existed from 1970-2006 were not in the considerably smaller Viborg Amt which existed in the period from circa 1790 to 1970.  So how will the categories for different amter with the same name in different time periods be handled.  There appears to be no time period groupings or designation.

2b. An example in the proposal uses Nordjyland Amt. Nordjyland Amt is an amter that only existed in the period from 1970 to 2006, a period for which nearly all relevant records are behind privacy laws.  Thus, it is of little significance for current genealogical research and will be found on few if any available genealogical records.  Many people who have found a sogn name (a goodly number of which are not unique) on a genealogical record will have no idea what amt the sogn was in from 1970-2006.  Those genealogical tools which are organized by amt, rarely if ever use the 1970-2006 amter.  So what amt is a user to put a sogne category under and how are they to know which one or ones to use?  The geographic tools which can be used in Denmark to figure out where a sogne is now (or what amt it was in in 2005 or any other particular point in time) that was in a particular amt in for example 1900 are not easy for the uninitiated to use.

2c.  It looks like the proposal splits sogne categories into a period with herreder (pre-1970) and a period with a kommune.  Which kommune?  There are two distinct periods for which there are different kommunes, both of which are after 1970 (i.e., after the herreder).  The first was from 1970-2006 when the kommunes were organized by the 1970-2006 amter.  The other, and current one, are the 2007-present kommune which are organized by region.  Like the amter, some of the names were reused in the post 2007 kommune and now represent a considerably different geographic area than the name did from 1970-2006.  Which one is used with the sogne name in the category?  How does the user know which one to use and which one is being referred to?  Or does the proposal intend to split the landing level sogne categories into at least 3 time periods - before 1970; 1970-2006 kommune and 2007 - present kommune?

2d.  It appears the proposal contemplates landing location categories in different time periods since it uses examples which couple Børglum Sogn with both a herred (pre-1970) and a kommune (post-1970).  Does the proposal contemplate splitting profiles of families that have lived in the same sogne for hundreds of years?  If so why?

In the original location category guidelines for Denmark (which went through the full approval processes including discussion), the primary goal was to create  landing level sogne (parish) location categories which would not split the same location by time unless absolutely necessary. (The time splitting would occur in the upper levels of the structure not used on profiles to allow those with knowledge of the geographic reorganizations to navigate through them when helpful for genealogical research purposes but not require those putting landing level categories on profiles to deal with all the reorganizations). The primary point was that sogne were the most stable geographic designations in Denmark with the overwhelming majority having been stable for centuries, often being remarkably stable in location  for nearly a millennium.   Thus, the WikiTree user putting location categories on profiles could select and put the proper sogne categories on a profile without knowing much about all the various geographic restructurings over time and without splitting families. 

It is particularly important to group profiles of local families together over time in Denmark in the same landing level categories because of the instability the names used other than a person's given name and the comparatively very limited number of those names for the total number of unrelated people using them.  See Danish Naming Conventions and Related Wikitree Name Field Guidelines for a history of naming issues in Denmark and why last name at birth is complicated to determine and not of much use in grouping families over generations.

Please show us examples of how this proposal would work with Lyngby Sogn.  There are at least 4 different sogne name Lyngby in Denmark.  So these examples would give us a better idea of the issues that need to be addressed to have a workable structure.

3.  Please explain what benefits are to be gained by disambiguating sogne/ parishes with the same name by herreder and kommune (which require splitting the parish landing level category by time) instead of using the name of a neighboring sogne which can readily and quickly clarify exactly which geographic area is meant by looking at a map from almost any time period in Danish history.  The name of a neighboring sogn is also 

*often available nearby in almost any genealogical tool

*requires no knowledge of the geographic or administrative history of Denmark to determine or recognize

*requires little knowledge of where the sogne appears in current governmental administration

*usually the name of the neighboring sogne have also been relatively stable for hundreds of years (much longer than the kommune and often even longer than the herreder)

4.  If this proposal were to be adopted, 

4.a. who would do the conversion of the existing location categories to the proposed restructure?  

4b. How long would it take? 

4c. What references would be used to resolve location name questions?  Would any use be made of Denmark's official place name regulatory structure and tools?  See Place Name Verifications and Spellings on the Project Denmark Resource Page.

c. How to do propose to handle the issue of amter with the same name covering considerably different geographic areas in different 

Comments

I do not mean to discourage moving in the direction of this proposal or to imply that the existing guidelines are the only way to address the issues raised in these questions.  I am only trying to point out issues not addressed, inconsistencies and ambiguities and the initial reasons for including neither the herred nor the kommune name nor any time period in the sogne category names.

The structure of sogne name, country name with a parenthetical reference to another nearby sogne name when necessary for clarity was intended to make it easier for anyone to create a proper landing level category to put on a profile even without having the necessary information to connect the landing level category to the structure of the category tree.  While creating the landing level category without nesting it in the structure would create a red link and needed category parent flags, it was always known that WikiTree would have many users who would not be knowledgeable about (or have any real interest) in Denmark's history of administrative and geographic reorganization.  This simplified landing level structure would make it possible for more users to create properly named sogne level categories and a much smaller team of people more knowledgeable about Denmark geography and history to create the categories needed to connect the landing level category to the upper levels of the category tree.

Please seriously consider leaving the landing level structure the way it is and tinkering only with the upper category structure.  The beauty of our category structure is that the upper structure can be reorganized multiple times to fit changing theories and directions of categorization if you have a well thought out simple to understand landing level format.

Sogne name, country      and

Sogne name (near neigboring sogn), Denmark

are both much simpler than trying to figure out what time period and what herred or kommune should be used for a parish/sogne category on a particular profile.  Using only a single category for the parish/sogn across the entire time it existed also makes it much simpler to look for related profiles than having to figure out what sogne, kommune category is in the same place as what other sogn, herred category.   Using the country name instead of a herred or kommune name in the landing level category also prevents the possibility of any confusion with similarly  named parishes and herreder in other Scandanavian areas in periods of time with shared language or common rulers. 

Given Scandanavia's history of long periods of common rule also means that in the case of Denmark, using the country name with the parish name instead of a smaller division is not all that far from the landing level location structure of 

parish, county 

or

county, state/province

used in other countries or empires.

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The existing guidelines were also looking forward to a time when all the sogne categories have been created in much the same way that currently all the state and county categories have been created in the United States of America.  It was always intended that the basic landing level sogne categories would be precreated without waiting for requests because of their importance as the most stable locations in the country, just as states and counties were in the U.S. and counties were in England. Users will then be able to pick the proper sogn category name with the category picker tool without knowing the name of the herred or kommune where the sogn was (or is now) located.

Presently, categories have been created for all the 2007-present regions, all the 1970-2006 amter, all the circa 1790-1970 amter and about half the 1662-1790 amter. A significant number of herreder categories have also been created.

Category names and parent structures with parent categories have been researched and put into a spreadsheet for about 1/4 to 1/3 of all the sogne or parish categories and all their parents.  It was initially anticipated that with the spreadsheet, a major part of the category creation could be automated.  However, thus far, the support has not materialized for automating category creation.

It is difficult to estimate how many sogne categories have been created thus far, but it is a considerable number.

Place names smaller than a sogn have not been precreated.  Place names smaller than a sogn do not appear to be addressed by this current modification proposal.

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There is no doubt you have put a lot of work into this. But updating it is surely a good thing, if it makes it more simple to use?

I am not going to pretend I understand all of what you wrote here, I am a severely sleep deprived mother of three so maybe you could dumb it down a bit for me and people like me? 

It seems to me that there is no two different sogns with the same name within the same herred, also doesn't seem like there are any two herreds with the same name.. So would "sogn, herred" structure not be sufficient?

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Herred with same name: Horns (Hjørring amt) + Horns (Frederiksborg amt) and Nørre (Viborg amt) + Nørre (Bornholms amt) - not with same herred+sogn combination though. Also one herred with tripple name: Tønder, Højer og Lø herred.

My favorite for finding places is Book "Sogn-Herred-Amt"

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Thank you, Mary

I’ll do my best to address each of your questions/concerns.

1. How does the proposal intend to handle Herreder with the same name?  ANSWER: You don’t need to find examples, but thank you anyway.  The herred will be combined with sogn name, ie: "Vejlby, Sønderhald Herred”.   If we later decide that we need a category for herreds, then the category could be combined with amt name, for example, "Sønderhald Herred, Randers Amt”.  None of the herreds have any sogn with the same name according to Danish Wikipedia. We’re not saying that the list is absolutely 100% complete but that the Danish Genealogy Society has put together a correct list of herreds.

2. Please clarify what time period of amter the proposal intends to be grouped in the Amter categories.  ANSWER:  The example https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:B%C3%B8rglum_Sogn%2C_B%C3%B8rglum_Herred  says what time period the sogne/parish was in which amt/counties. Those will be the parent category for the sogne category since a category can have more than one parent category.

2 a)  how will the categories for different amter with the same name in different time periods be handled.  There appears to be no time period groupings or designation.  ANSWER:  The purpose of the amt/county category is to gather the sogns belonging to the amt.  We are mainly categorising the church books info, a free-space page can contain the info of the geographical changes of the amt.  This is how the new category for Hjørring amt https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Hj%C3%B8rring_County  (disregard anything below the line, that will be removed once the subcategories has been created) and this is the old one https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Hj%C3%B8rring_Amt%2C_Danmark_(1793-1970)

2 b) what amt is a user to put a sogne category under and how are they to know which one or ones to use? ANSWER:  an “ordinary WT user" does not have to create any categories, we have the request category form for that now. Or it can be asked to be created in the G2G or in the Nordic Google Group.

2 c) Which one is used with the sogne name in the category?  How does the user know which one to use and which one is being referred to?  Or does the proposal intend to split the landing level sogne categories into at least 3 time periods - before 1970; 1970-2006 kommune and 2007 - present kommune?  ANSWER:  Using the Location Category Info Box, we have the option of adding time period, just as is done in the example of

 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:B%C3%B8rglum_Sogn%2C_B%C3%B8rglum_Herred

2 d)  Does the proposal contemplate splitting profiles of families that have lived in the same sogne for hundreds of years?  If so why?  ANSWER:  A profile born, for example, in Børglum sogn 1950 can be added to both the category “Børglum sogn, Børglum Herred” as well as "Børglum sogn, Løkken-Vrå Kommune” and if still living (and if we ever feel the need of creating categories for 2007 an onward) it can also be added to  "Børglum sogn, Hjørring Kommune”. If born 1974 it should NOT be added to "Børglum sogn, Børglum Herred” because there was no such administrative unit in 1974, even though the geographical area was the same.

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Example of Lyngby sogn (prior to 1970) as asked for:

"Lyngby Sogn, Hellum Herred”, parent category "Aalborg Amt" and "Aalborg County"

"Lyngby Sogn, Hasle Herred" parent category "Aarhus Amt" and "Aarhus County”

"Lyngby Sogn, Djurs Sønder Herred”, parent category "Randers Amt" and "Randers County”

"Lyngby Sogn, Børglum Herred”, parent category "Hjørring Amt" and "Hjørring County”

3.  Consider which is easier to understand:  Taars Sogn (nær ved Vrejlev Sogn), Danmark” or “Taars sogn, Borglum Herred”  For most users, I would think the latter would be easier to understand.

4.a)  A Categories Team will be established under the Nordic Project. 

4. b)  The basic structure will be established quickly with the help of the Categorization Project.  From there, it depends on how many people in such a team and how much time they have to spare.

4. c)  The names listed at the Danish Genealogical Society, Rigsarkivet, ie. Danish National Archives, Wikipedia and the Danish members of the Nordic project who, presumably, know about both past and present location names.

4. d) I would need an example to address this, please.

As for small locations, any smaller units like a village can be placed under the sogn/herred category. Example: “Placename, Aaaa Sogn, Bbb Herred”.

Answer 8

That Danish people get to where they need to go through out time is a mystery to this old Swede after reading about this.

Answer 9

I think the proposal is fine, and I agree with Ole Selmer in that we shall follow the national archive. And stick to the 1970 rules that they follow.

I would also suggest to have a level below sogn for locations (bebyggelse, ejerlav). Most of those can be found in J.o. trap, or Wikipedia.

Comments

A level below sogn category can be added if needed. The sogns in Denmark are more than 2000 so that would be main priority to create for existing profiles.

What is J.o. trap?