Why yell about pre-xxxx? [closed]

Question

I, in a Dutch culture where capitalizing words is not considered yelling but emphasizing, was accused of yelling on WikiTree. Orwell, some animals...

Pre-1700 Requirement: If you're not already coordinating with a project and familiar with applicable style rules click here: ASK FOR ADVICE

Comments

An Orwellian button?  Seems a bit extreme.

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Do I really have to explain?

Answer 1

When writing the use of capitals (or italics) was considered emphasising, but since the internet it became yelling, go figure huh?

Comments

I have letters between my great-grandma and her best friend, where the emphasis was multiple underlines and !!!!! (which we are now told we should not use on g2g).

Customs change, not always for the good.

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When agreeing capitalization is not to be done, then why is WikiTree yelling "ASK FOR ADVICE" at anyone so bold as to edit a pre-xxxx profile?

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Unfortunately, even with the yellow and the capital letters, some people will still ignore the banner and do whatever they please.

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@Natalie, yes, I've noticed that.

An alternative would be a real, human-approved pre-1700 application, rather than a multiple-choice quiz that you can basically try and fail until you pass. New members should make at least 500 contributions before they apply. Just a quick glance at a few of those contributions would be sufficient to approve or refuse it.

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Leif, this has been suggested before. However, considering the number of pre-1700 certifications that are done per month, we would need an army of volunteers to monitor and collaborate on these approvals.

This month alone we have seen 180 self-certifications, 287 in May... We are averaging 297.85 self-certifications per month.

There would also need to be an outline of what is looked at, what qualifies as being 'good' or 'bad', etc. Not to mention, determining 'good' and 'bad' would be much harder to do since the requirements for modern ancestors are much more lax than pre-1700 profiles. What are we going to check for?

I like to think of Pre-1700 as the "training ground" for collaborative genealogy. This is where members gain their wings and learn to work together an our shared ancestors. They collaborate with other members, projects, etc. in an effort to deeper genealogy. I for one like to take the banner as a reminder that I am not here by myself - I am on a collaborative site and need to think in the collaborative mindset.

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@Steven, there aren't 180 members each month who reach 500 contributions. You reply to only one part of my suggestion, while ignoring the other which is equally important. And the banner makes me genuinely uncomfortable.

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Leif, I am sure you are aware the current contribution count is 50, not 500. In order for this to be considered for change, you would need to make a proposal in accordance with Help:Developing New Rules. Suggestions made in comments outside of this scope (linked above) are not taken as proposals and are not considered since there is no way to identify or track them.

So my comment above was not meant to address your post in its entirety, but rather offer my opinion on the 'human approved' aspect you raised.

In regards to the banner, I am not sure why this is so offensive. It is meant as a reminder - a note - and does not prohibit those who are certified from making changes. If we were to start hiding all the reminders, what possible repercussions could we start seeing?

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Shouting is offensive. CAPITAL shouting has been offensive since decades on the internet. There are cultural differences with respect to the level that is considered shouting, but still: shouting is still shouting to most people.

Why not simply lowercase those words? Easy peasy.

Answer 2

That yellow banner is so ugly and off-putting that I tend to avoid work on Pre-1700 profiles. I wish there were some way to qualify for not getting this in my face whenever I want to edit somebody born that early.

Comments

I agree qualification should be recorded as (yet another) badge, and respected. Having the pre-xxxx and one or more project badges apparently is not enough. Usually I only work on the Dutch Roots aka Netherlands project, know what is expected, live up to that, and thus just ignore the banner...

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I hate working on pre-1700 profiles, not because of the banner, but because the sources become scarce and contain far less information than you would find later on. Because of that, I always feel like I'm on shaky ground.

It's actually difficult to understand (to me) why so many contributors seem to love pre-1700 and are in a hurry to get there. Yes, I'm a mong those who would like a more stringent screening of contributors looking to get the certification. But then the conditions were tightened not that long ago (there used to be no minimum number of contributions; actually, before that, there was no pre-1700 certification at all). They may change again. These things take time.

As to the banner, I just don't take it personnally. Most, if not all of my pre-1700 work is in France, where there are so few profiles that the risk of bumping into a duplicate is virtually nil, and since I use similar sources (BMS) post-1700 the difference is not great.  I "choose" not to mind, if you will.

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Seems I'm very good at just not seeing things that are irrelevant to me. When I work on pre-1700 it's usually in an area where there are church records that early. And there are few WikiTreers with more competence in the area than me, anyway.

One thing (a different thing) that does disturb me a bit every time I come across it is where WikiTree asks me to curse.

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@Eva,

Probably don't want to know what WikiTree is asking...

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Oh, it's when you send private messages, it says:
"Another anti-spam protection. Curse them."

Just a programmer's bad joke, but I still think it's inappropriate.

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Aah, never noticed. Have trouble enough recalling 10 in English...

But indeed, inappropriate.

Answer 3

Capitalization certainly has different usages in different contexts - I think we can all agree on that. If I were to say:

Jan, THANK YOU for all of your work on Dutch profiles.

Am I yelling or making an emphasis? Possibly both! It all depends on the context.

With that said, it should be noted that the text you are referencing as 'yelling' is actually a button that has a style class assigned to it. It is the same style as other buttons, such as:

DESCENDANTS, ANCESTORS, ASK QUESTION, INVITE, COUSIN BAIT, TREE & TOOLS, POST NEW COMMENT, SAVE CHANGES...

If you know about HTML and CSS, then you will know it is much easier to manage a small range of CSS classes that can be reused, rather than making CSS styles for each and every function, or applying specific styles to specific areas that override the default behaviors. This would result in longer production and update times for simple changes due to the need to test every possible scenario, or adjust elements that may start acting differently, etc.

So I guess my statement here is: If you also object to the use of capitalization in the other cases (buttons) I mentioned above, then I would suggest making a proposal to change the styling, rather than trying to draw conclusions about what is yelling or emphasis.

Comments

Edit: Corrected Steve==>Steven, sorry!

No worries, I go by both! Steven is the birth name, Steve is what most people call me. Trust me, I have been called worse 

I think you know I was referring to the context of actively addressing an individual. I have no objection to capitalization, as I stated in the question text. So also not to the capitals in the banner. As it is apparently ok that WikiTree (in the Anglophone cultural opinion) "yells" there, I see no reason why I should not be allowed to emphasize things by capitalization.

That is what my question is about, not about to what extent people live up to the warning banner, or technical barriers to implement lower case. It is about consistent policy.

See my reply to Melanie above as well. As I mentioned, the caps are not meant as 'yelling' in all cases (and not the first thing I see either - I lean towards emphasis based on the context).  Perhaps you can message me the details of the situation and we can go from there?

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How do you emphasize wording in a place which does not allow formatting (e.g., sending private messages)?

commented by Steven Harris 

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*ouch*

//eeewwww//

 

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@Melanie - Again, NOT arguing here - but it all comes down to personal preference. 

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@Steven,

I hear what you are saying: "WikiTree software does not yell when addressing a person in capitals, but in member to member communication capitals will be considered yelling"

There are no details, because there is no "situation", I was just showing the discrepancy between the way WikiTree is allowed to communicate versus how a member is allowed to. Just straight logic and reasoning.

I was triggered by a panicky email by a lady, hit by the banner, no idea what she had done wrong, no idea what was meant by pre1700 project, no idea what style rules she was violating.

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@Jan, I think there may be some confusion here. You said "...but in member to member communication capitals will be considered yelling." Where is this written? I have never come across this 'rule'.

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@ Steven -- also *not* arguing, but you asked "how would you", and I simply answered it with olde style emphasis marks.  

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@Steven,

Well, no written rule, but it is what most participants in this thread claim to be the current internet etiquette. And, unaware of this, I made someone very angry some years ago when I asked that person to "STOP deleting given names" on a large set of profiles as "solution" to  suggestions.

But let's end this discussion, I guess we can agree that we disagree.

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Jan, I think the point here is that it is current internet etiquette and not a WikiTree rule.

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Eowyn, then the point also is that WikiTree is not following current internet etiquette.

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One only needs to see the number of times someone whose question is IN ALL CAPS is asked to please stop shouting.

I recall a year or so ago someone was doing biographies in ALL CAPS, and every g2g post was also IN ALL CAPS, until they were (quite politely) told (not so much asked) to please stop shouting all the time.  Said person explained that they saw the ALL CAPS as an aid to less than 100% vision.

Said person stopped using ALL CAPS.

Point being -- whether it is a Wikitree "rule" or not, the majority of people perceive ALLL CAPS AS SHOUTING, and, therefore, quite rude.