Johann Pfeiffer needs a better birth location in Germany [closed]

Question

Johann Pfeiffer needs a less convulted birth location in the data boxes.  The entire location is in the biography.  The data box has separators in the location.  Could someone familiar with this area of Germany please take a look?

The current location is Hinkelhof (Vollmerz (Schlüchtern)), Schlüchtern, Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel=Kurhessen

Comments

I made some other edits, and had to save, so I changed it to "Hinkelhof, Vollmerz, Schlüchtern, Kurhessen, Germany". From what I could find, Hinkelhof is a hamlet in Vollmerz, which is in the district of Schlüchtern. 

Edit: Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel existed from 1567–1803. Kurhessen is the modern equivalent. I changed it to Königreich Westphalen, which it was part of from 1807–1813

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The country was called 'Rheinbund' from 1806 until 1813. 'Germany' is just an English translation of the contemporary name 'Deutschland'.

Answer 1

Hi all,

I am back home tomorrow and tomorrow evening I will have a look on it.
Only two things. The Königreich Westphalen has nothing to do with Westfalen. Even the old Herzogtum Westfalen was never part of the Königreich Westphalen. And second the records you find belongs to the Lutheran state church of Kurhessen-Waldeck. That is a church organizaton and not a political administration. Even Schmalkalden in the middle of Thüringen belongs the church Kurhessen-Waldeck.

Comments

Thanks so much, Dieter.

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- Middle Ages: Weiler Hinkelhof, Gericht Altengronau, Herrschaft Hanau, Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

- 15th century: Weiler Hinkelhof, Amt Schwarzenfels, Grafschaft Hanau (ab 1459: Grafschaft Hanau-Münzeberg), Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

- 1643: Weiler Hinkelhof, Amt Schwarzenfels, Grafschaft Hanau, Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel, Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

- 1698: Weiler Hinkelhof, Herrschaft Rammholz, Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

- 1803: Weiler Hinkelhof, Amt, Altengronau, Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel, Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

- August 1806: Weiler Hinkelhof, Amt Altengronau, Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel

- November 1806: Weiler Hinkelhof, Amt Altengronau, Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel, Französische Militärverwaltung

Although the Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel were merged 1807 to form Königreich Westphalen, the former Herrschaft Rammholz came to the Fürstentum Hanau

- 1807: Weiler Hinkelhof, Fürstentum Hanau, Französische Militärverwaltung

- 1810: Weiler Hinkelhof, Departement Hanau, Großherzogtum Frankfurt, Rheinbund

- 1813: Weiler Hinkelhof, Fürstentum Hanau, General-Gouvernement des Großherzogtums Frankfurt und des Fürstentums Isenburg, Zentralverwaltungsdepartement der Alliierten für die besetzten Gebiete

- 1815 Weiler Hinkelhof, Fürstentum Hanau, Kurfürstentum Hessen, Deutscher Bund

- 1821 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Provinz Hanau, Kurfürstentum Hessen, Deutscher Bund

- 1848 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Bezirk Hanau, Kurfürstentum Hessen, Deutsches Reich

- 1851 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Provinz Hanau, Kurfürstentum Hessen, Deutscher Bund

- 1866 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Kassel, Provinz Hessen-Nassau, Königreich Preußen

- 1867 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Kassel, Provinz Hessen-Nassau, Königreich Preußen, Norddeutscher Bund

- 1871 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Kassel, Provinz Hessen-Nassau, Königreich Preußen, Deutsches Reich

- 1918 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Kassel, Provinz Hessen-Nassau, Freistaat Preußen, Deutsches Reich

- 1944 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Wiesbaden, Provinz Nassau, Freistaat Preußen, Deutsches Reich

- 1945 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Wiesbaden, Staat Groß-Hessen, Amerikanische Besatzungszone

- 1946 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Wiesbaden, Land Hessen, Amerikanische Besatzungszone

- 1949 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Wiesbaden, Land Hessen, Bundesrepublik Deutschland

- 1968 Weiler Hinkelhof, Gemeinde Vollmerz, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt, Land Hessen, Bundesrepublik Deutschland

- 1969 Weiler Hinkelhof, Stadtteil Vollmerz, Stadt Schlüchtern, Kreis Schlüchtern, Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt, Land Hessen, Bundesrepublik Deutschland

- since 1974 Weiler Hinkelhof, Stadtteil Vollmerz, Stadt Schlüchtern, Main--Kinzig-Kreis, Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt, Land Hessen, Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

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Here it is, It is not complicated but maybe a little bit confusing.

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Dieter, Whoa! Thank you so much.  I'll post an additional link on the profile for the pm and anyone else who looks at it for future reference and research.

Answer 2

For me as a German, the indication "Königreich Westphalen" is very confusing!

Because if one looks for the place in Westphalia, he does not find it! The place Vollmers or Schlüchtern is in Hessen and should also be historically associated with Hessen and not with Westphalia!

Even if Westphalia is possibly correct, for other genealogists the specification "Vollmerz, Schlüchtern, Cassel, Hessen-Nassau, Preußen" or "Hinkelhof (Vollmerz (Schlüchtern)), Schlüchtern, Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel-Kurhessen" is more purposeful for an exact localization! This is what you find on Meyers or GOV!

The region belongs only a few years to Westfalen, then it was Hessen again!

Also churchbooks are in the archive "Kurhessen-Waldeck: Landeskirchliches Archiv Kassel"

An 100% exact chronological designation of a place is not always helpful!

Comments

Hessen-Nassau, Preußen only existed from 1868 until 1944, so that seems wrong to me as a historical location in 1808.

I think you should use either contemporary location names or location names from the period in question, not historical location names from a different time period.

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He was born in 1808, 

Landgrafschaft Hessen-Kassel existed from 1567–1803

Kurfürstentum Hessen from 1803–1807

Königreich Westphalen from 1807–1813

Kurfürstentum Hessen from 1814–1866

Provinz Hessen-Nassau from 1868–1944

Provinz Kurhessen from 1944–1945

Groß-Hessen from 1945–1946

Presently  Hesse

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Kurhessen-Waldeck = Evangelische Kirche von Kurhessen-Waldeck

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Koen:

Thank you for you answer.  WikiTree uses location for the time period -- hence a contemporary location is incorrect.

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Thanks, Aaron for your answer and chart.

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I don't think that "Kingdom of Westphalia" is correct. And no one will find this place if they look for it in Westphalia!

It was certainly  Hessen (in some form) before 1807 and after 1813!
I think this should be recognizable to find this place!

There is an Historical place encyclopedia of Hessen, it says:

Vollmerz:    Verwaltungsbezirk:
1806-1810: Kurfürstentum Hessen
1810-1813: Großherzogtum Frankfurt, Departement Hanau, Distrikt Altengronau
1816: Kurfürstentum Hessen, Fürstentum Hanau, Amt Schwarzenfels
1821: Kurfürstentum Hessen, Provinz Hanau, Landkreis Schlüchtern

On the German Wikipedia page of Vollmerz it says:
During the Napoleonic period, Vollmerz was under French military administration as part of the judicial office of Ramholz from 1806, and belonged to the Principality of Hanau from 1807 to 1810, and then to the Grand Duchy of Frankfurt, Department of Hanau from 1810 to 1813. It then fell to the Electorate of Hesse. (Translatet with deepl.com)

There is nothing here about the Kingdom of Westphalia!

 

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Monika, "während der Napoleonischen Zeit" bedeutet, dass Vollmerz zum Königreich Westphalen gehörte. Napoleon errichtete in großen Teilen Deutschland das Königreich Westphalen, um seine Gebietsgewinne während seiner vielen Kriege in sein Kaiserreich einzufügen.

The term "during the Napoleonic time" means that Vollmerz belonged to the Kingdom of Westphalia. Napoleon created in big parts of Germany the Kingdom of Westphalia to integrate it into the French Empire.

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Thanks, Monika.  Luckily, the question link in G2G gets put onto the profile so others may find the discussion. I see that your source differs from Aaron's above for the location.  Indeed these locations are really tough.

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So perhaps the place name should be: Hinkelhof, Vollmerz, Fürstentum Hanau? Dieter is working on the pages for this era currently and it's a huge undertaking. His input would be awesome.

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Thanks Jelena.  I was hoping you would weigh in as you've helped me so much with these locations in the past.  Still, I would like a location that someone looking for German relations could interpret.

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Traci:  Dieter has been very helpful to me in the past with these locations, so maybe he too will add to the discussion.

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Elena, das mag schon sein, aber niemand wird später irgendetwas finden, wenn man den Ort in Westfalen sucht!

Der Bezug zu Hessen sollte erkennbar sein!

Ein Vorschlag wäre: Departement Hanau in Klammern dazu zusetzen

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That may well be, but no one will find anything later if you look for the place in Westphalia!

The reference to Hessen should be recognizable!

A suggestion would be: To add the Department of Hanau in parentheses

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Falls du mich meinst...

Der Wikipedia-Eintrag zum Königreich Westphalen sagt klipp und klar, welche Territorien Teil des Königreichs waren. Da kann man sehr genau sehen, dass Gebiete im heutigen Nordrhein-Westfalen nur einen kleinen Teil ausmachten.

Klammern in Ortsfeldern lösen Fehlermeldungen der Datenbank aus. Also funktioniert das so nicht. Ich habe jetzt zwischen Schlüchtern und Königreich Westphalen, abgetrennt durch Kommata, noch Department Hanau hinzugefügt.

The Wikipedia-entry about the Kingdom of Westphalia clearly shows which territories were parts of the Kingdom. (The German article names the territories.)There it's visible, that only a small part of today's Northrhine-Westphalia is part of it.

About the parenthesis in location fields. Those cause a Database-error, so that doesn't work. I added Department Hanau, seperated by commas, between "Schlüchtern" and "Königreich Westphalen".

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Jelena, thanks so much.  As you said, adding parenthesis just causes another data suggestion.

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> Falls du mich meinst...

Sorry Jelena, das war die Autokorrektur am Tablet.

Ich denke, so ist es für folgende Ahnenforscher sicher leichter, den richtigen Ort und die richtigen Quellen-Standorte zu finden.

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I think in this way it is certainly easier for subsequent genealogists to find the right place and the right source sites.

Answer 3

German place names are super confusing. They changed  constantly. See this very interesting video when you have a minute: 1000 Years of European Border Changes.

The Germany Project recently published some guidelines on location field guidelines HERE. If you click on the link for Rheinbund, you'll see that Königreich Westphalen existed from 1807-1813 and there's a list of Departements. I can't find any towns near modern-day Schlüctern. Are we sure this town was in Königreich Westphalen? Hinkelhof is very close to Frankfurt, so I'm using Frankfurt as a reference point. I think Monika is correct that this place is not in the Kingdom of Westphalia.

And this is why people just add "Germany" to the location fields ... :-)

Comments

Thanks Traci.  I don't think we're sure about anything on this location.  I was removing separators from locations and the location on this profile is well beyond my skill set.  And as you said -- this would be why I would add Germany to the location.

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Starting with the German Wikipedia-page of Schlüchtern, I went on to find the correct naming. On the German Wikipedia-page for the "Department Hanau" (which Schlüchtern was a part of) it says: "The Départment Hanau was the area of the Principality of Hanau within the Electorate of Hesse. [...] After Napoleon occupied the Electorate of Hesse in 1806, the Principality of Hanau was under French Military Government until 1810 and was then integrated into the Great Duchy of Frankfurt. The German Wikipedia-page for the Great Duchy of Frankfurt reads: "On 16 Aug 1810, there was decreed a constitution after the French example." So yes, Vollmerz as part of Schlüchtern was a part of the French Empire. Even if only from 1806 to 1813, when the Great Duchy of Frankfurt crashed.