any trace of Frank/Francis Howard B 1856 Dublin, D 1922 Winchester, UK [closed]

Question

Registered as Frank on UK 1901,1911 Census and Marriage Cert to Beatrice Millicent Hibberd in 1911, profession Colliery Agent and Tobacconist (also shown in Kelly's 1920 for Hampshire) in Winchester.  My MGF.

Answer 1

Hi Phil!

Welcome to the G2G Forum!  I see you've done a lot on your family line, and your question is a really good one.

It really helps us if your question includes a link to the profile of the person you are asking about.  Is it https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Howard-26325 ?

There is a field for the Wiki ID near the bottom of the question box.  The functionality of that field creates a two-way link between the profile and any discussion that ends up happening here in answer to your question.

I've personally kinda stopped trying to answer questions that don't have a profile linked.  What was happening to me was i would do some research, and then the questioner would basically say 'I know that already' and then I'd do some more, and they would say 'Yes, you are so right!  I knew that too'.....I was wasting time re-doing their research.  So i really appreciate when the questioner does link the profile and i can see what is already known and what has already been tried.  

You can still edit your question to put the Wiki ID in the field.  

Also, if you 'tag' your question (using that other field at the bottom of the question box) you might be able to get your question to the attention of experts in the areas your family lived in.  So tag your question with additional separate tags such as for Howard, Hibbard, Ireland, England etc.  That way your question will come up in the feeds of the folks who are 'following' those tags.

Hope I'm making sense!  Let me know...

Cheers

Shirlea

Comments

Hi, Shirlea,

Many thanks for pointer to Wikitree etiquette - a mere newbie me so glad of your help.  Yes, I have drawn up a reasonably significant tree for my "Phillips" tree elsewhere on My Heritage but this brickwall for /Howard-26325 is the 2nd closest to me, my father's life-story being no. 1. I am hoping Wikitree users may have knowledge of /Howard-26325's 1st wife or parents and progress from there. All relevant relatives are long passed away so records and DNA are the main, if limited, means to make headway. I continue to explore both.

Phil p.

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Excellent, Phil!  Do you have the marriage certificate for the Frank's second marriage, the one to Beatrice?  It should list his father's name and occupation, which could provide some clues.

It will list her father's name as well, so it could be worth it to you to order the certificate.

It can likely be ordered through Ancestry, or through the General Register Office (GRO) at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp.

You will have to make an account, which is free.  Some birth and death searches are free, also, but to get a marriage certificate i think there is a fee.

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Phil - - have you  tried looking under the alias Patrick O'Toole?

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hi Melanie!  great to see you on the case!  I got a whiff of Patrick O'Toole, but couldn't see how it connected.  What are you seeing?

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Alias as given on Military record.  (Incorrectly indexed, as the transcriber has transposed first names.)

Francis Howard - alias Patrick O'Toole - joined Aldershot 12 May 1876, aged 19 years.  Born parish of St Patrick's, Dublin, Ireland.

On admission was 5ft 5inches, fair complexion, grey eyes, light brown hair (sounds delightfully Irish!), had a scar on back of left forearm.

On discharge had grown 2 inches, so was 5ft 7inches.  Trade: labourer.  (I can't read his intended address, other than it's 326 Boleyn, King's something, London.)

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Note at the bottom says "reserved £5-0-0 for Good Conduct Medal". He had to pay for his medal?!  How rude!!

Seems he left at the rank of Colour Sergeant.

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very cool!

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it also mentions his next-of-kin, brother John o'Toole of 161 Chapel Street, Dublin!

There's a good clue for connecting with Ireland!

I see that Francis always signs as Francis Howard.  So probably we are looking at his mother having married twice.

Melanie, do you know a non-paywall location of these military records?  I'm viewing them on Ancestry.

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I have it on ancestry library-- so, no.  

Answer 2

Event Type: Death
Registration District: Winchester
Name: Francis Howard
Age: 66
Death Date: 1922
Death Place: Winchester, Hampshire, England
Volume: 2C
Affiliate Line Number: 133
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year: 1922
Birth Year (Estimated): 1856

Page: 186
 

Citing this Record
"England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVH3-7R7C : 4 September 2014), Francis Howard, 1922; from "England & Wales Deaths, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Death, Winchester, Hampshire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.

Comments

might be him...

Answer 3

I think i see him on the 1901 census, being a tobaccanist

Name:Frank HowardAge:45Estimated Birth Year:abt 1856Relation to Head:HeadGender:MaleBirth Place:IrelandCivil Parish:St ThomasSearch Photos:Search for 'St Thomas' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collectionEcclesiastical parish:St Thomas and St ClementCounty/Island:HampshireCountry:England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration District:WinchesterSub-registration District:WinchesterED, institution, or vessel:4Neighbors:View others on pagePiece:1081Folio:69Page Number:7Household Schedule Number:47Household Members:

Name	Age
Frank Howard	45
Eugenie Badois	29

Comments

ah yes!  I see on the 1911, Tobacconist and Colliery Agent.  Does that mean he had a license to sell coal?

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I started a reply but it has vanished while I searched Kellys for Wilts 1895 and Hants 1920 that I hold - nothing in Wilts, but 2 entries in Hants - one for his shop and one as his trade, both refer only to Tobacconist; but the Hants one is for 9 years after the 1911 Census and just 2 years before he died so could have given up that line of coal business by 1920.  My MGM kept the shop going for another 30 years or so.

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Well I can see how you might reach that conclusion but the tobacconist shop was tiny and on a busy road so not suitable for a dirty,dusty stock or the stabling of horses and carts.  Only his tobacconist trade appears in Kellys 1920  (this was the missing reply (hidden by W10) but more detail in substitute reply, now above.

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Yes, it is very interesting how the colliery agent aspect came into it.  Maybe he wasn't presently a colliery top boss (since Winchester didn't have collieries) but had previously been, and that's how it got mentioned in 1911...sure wonder where he was in 1891, 1881, 1871....maybe we will see him connected to coal there somehow.

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I think might have been a  middle man between a colliery and the customer. When someone in the area  wanted to fill their cellar with so many tons of coal they'd go through him. The word agent being used in the same way as in  an insurance agent.

See this advertising  page for the Radstock Colliery, agent AE Bacon  from a Salisbury directoryhttps://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/community/gettextimage.php?id=7340 

The Radstock colliery was in Somerset and owned by an Earl.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_Coalfield

 ( big rabbit hole for me . The wikipedia article  suggests the  railway line from Somerset through Wiltshire and down to Weymouth which passes very near to where I live was built to deliver coal from there) 

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Hi, Helen;

Thanks for that - an interesting take on the "agent" angle.

I got an e-mail from Wikitree from Coleman -5109 that said there was a comment added but I couldn't see it in the thread - but it gave me two web-links that are most useful for further research - if that was you , then again thanks.

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hi Phil -- were the two links related to military / national archives?

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Hi, Shirlea, Minor point: I spent 25 years in the military, during which time the 1961 and 1971 censuses would have been taken; in 61 I was under age to vote, in a military school , so that might exclude me filling in Census, by 71 I was on active service but can't recall being required to fill in a Census as probably living in Mess that year.  My point is Institutions sometimes get to fill in on behalf of "inmates" .  It may be completely irrelevant but two minor thoughts:  The tobacconists was literally 5 minutes from Winchester Barracks -he could have been based there, and my mother expressed strong dislike of military personnel such as her brother, an Army officer, and other family members with military backgrounds - perhaps a reflection on Frank, if he served.

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Sorry, no;  One was for an advert for the Radstock Coal&Coke Co. and the other for the Earl who owned nearby mines. probably the nearest mines but still 50 miles away.

e-mail from Wilkitree said Coleman -5109 had added to thread but I couldn't find it there.

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I see that comment in the thread, right above your comment about it!  you might have needed to refresh the page to see it.

Yes, those adverts were really interesting!  That is certainly the kind of agent that Francis could be, even without a big warehouse or a coalmine in the neighbourhood!

Answer 4

here's a possible wild goose chase for you!  A soldier in the 20th Hussars was involved somehow in a court martial in 1892.  His name was Frank F Howard.  

Name:	Frank F. Howard
Court or Trial Date:	26 May 1892
Court or Trial Place:	Aldershot
Regiment:	20 Hussars
Reference Number:	WO 86/41

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4431781

Source Citation

The National Archives of the UK; Kew, Surrey, England; Judge Advocate General's Office: District Courts Martial Registers, Home and Abroad; Series: WO 86; Piece Number: 41

Source Information

Ancestry.com. UK, Naval and Military Courts Martial Registers, 1806-1930 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2016.

Original data: Admiralty: Courts Martial Registers ADM 194/1-45, 47-49, 180-242. The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey, England.

• ADM 194/1-45, 47-49, 180-242 Admiralty: Courts Martial Registers
• WO 213/1-25 Judge Advocate General's Office: Field General Courts Martial and Military Courts, Registers
• WO 86/1-94 Judge Advocate General's Office: District Courts Martial Registers, Home and Abroad
• WO 92/1-3, 8-10 Judge Advocate General's Office: General Courts Martial Registers, Confirmed at Home.

The 20th Hussars seem to have been spending time in Ireland around the time young Frank might have been thinking about joining up...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Hussars

You might want to rule him out....

Comments

i posted this two days ago, then hid it because I was seeing several Francis Howards in the military, and had come to believe that this was a person from Northumberland.  Still, now that you point out that the shop was quite close to the barracks, some military career, though possibiy not this person's, is not impossible.

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The Irish-born Francis aka Patrick O'Toole might be back in the running!  I think i will start a WikiTree profile for him.  If he turns out to be your guy, we can merge the profiles.

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No, the Irish-born Francis Howard aka Patrick O'Toole is not back in the running - he married Harriet Regan in 1883 and both of them seem to be mentioned in army service records (he signed up again in 1914) in Newcastle on Tyne during the first world war, while your guy was running his tobacconist shop and married to Beatrice.

Anyway, here's the profile i just built for Francis aka Patrick. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Howard-26622

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Hi, Shirlea,

I checked the data I have on the Badois, no mention of Galbraith that you asked about;  However - to capture her data in Family Historian, I had recorded the housekeeper as tho a spouse of Frank, and whilst checking the Galbraith idea, I noticed several hints for Frank.

One, for the US 12 Census, for Second Avenue, Manhattan district of New York,  13 July 1900,  lines 76-79, gives a Francis Howard as father of a boy, Frances (11) and girl, Francis (15) Howard (all born in Ireland) but he as a father of 4 children (2 had died) BUT his wife Annie , had no children and came from Italy.   Now this suggests she was a "2nd" wife he had married when the 1st one died or left,

Now the intriguing thought is: Did that Francis Howard dump his Italian wife and children to come back to the UK;

"Winchester" Frank had no children with him in 1901 or 1910 BUT he called my mother Frances, and her brother Francis (+ other first names) - That seems such a coincidence !   Finding a later Census or BMD record for "NY" Francis Howard in the US would dispel this line of thought but not familiar with US data sources yet. Obversely an immigration record for return to the UK in 1900 would strengthen the coincidence if not be a proof.  Luckily I took a PDF snapshot  of the Census page because MyH is not re-offering it (for a link),  any way I can send you it, if you want it?

Phil P

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Thanks Phil!  I send you a private message thru WikiTree's system. In the message, you will see my email address.  Feel free to send things there!

Cheers

Shirlea

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I just noticed that Eugenia has a profile here: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Badois-2

so i added a source on her marriage and a few other bits - not a masterpiece, just collecting some sources.

Answer 5

Any male descendants of Eustace who could test their Y-DNA?

Comments

There is one son but I have no address/details for him - he was doing VSO in Nepal in the 80's but came back with Nepalese Wife & children - but no contact after Eustace (Aubrey) passed.  Of course my DNA is via the maternal side, not sure how that affects % of Frank he or I might have (LDNA says 1.3% Irish for me).

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Y-DNA is different from regular auDNA that Ancestry or MyHeritage tests.  I think you can only test it at FamilyTreeDNA. But it has a unique feature that could be helpful for you.  It doesn't change much over many generations. It might be able to narrow down the location of your Howard ancestors 300 to 500 years ago.  But the snag is that you don't have ANY of it yourself.  It is only passed father to son.  That's why you would need Eustace or his son.

Here's some info: https://dna-explained.com/y-dna-resources/

Cheers

Shirlea

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I have had yDNA report from LDNA but agree - my yDNA comes from Haydn Phillips et al not Frank;  I checked for Peter Francis Howard, Eustace Aubrey Francis Howard's son who would be a yDNa from Frank/Francis but my notes have him dieing in 2007, and he had broken from his Nepalese wife who might have a son and their names etc not known.

Answer 6

Thanks to all for interesting, indeed intriguing suggestions - I am pleased to report that Frank Howard's father is recorded - on Frank's 1911 Marriage Cert. as Ralph Greville Howard, added to Wikitree 27/9/2021.  Especial thanks to Shirlea Smith.