Who were the parents of Elizabeth Holand who married Roger Fiennes?

+10 votes
645 views
Currently, Elizabeth Holand (Holland-887), wife of Roger Fiennes (Fynes-3), shows John Holland-577 KG and Elizabeth Lancaster-459 as her parents. This John Holland-577, on WikiTree, is a son of Thomas Holland-32 and grandson of Robert Holland-33.

Richardson, in Royal Ancestry, Vol 3, p 297, and Vol 2, p 580, shows her parents as Sir John Holand by his (2nd) wife, Margaret (Unknown). This Sir John Holand is a son of Sir Robert de Holand (Holland-597) (d 16 Mar 1372/3) by his wife Elizabeth (Unknown), a brother of Thomas Holland-32 and a son of Robert Holland-33.

I am concluding that there should be two John Hollands (Holland-577 KG and yet to be created/found Sir John Holand), who would have been first cousins, and that Elizabeth Holland-887 is currently attached to the wrong parents.

(a side issue, to further complicate the matter, Richardson does not show Robert de Holand (Holland-597) marrying Margaret Hetton-1)

Does anyone have information that would lead to a different conclusion?
WikiTree profile: Elizabeth Fiennes
in Genealogy Help by PM Eyestone G2G6 Mach 3 (33.7k points)

2 Answers

+2 votes

Question was: Who were the parents of Elizabeth Holand who married Roger Fiennes? 

 

 

As we can see, Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes's parentage is not
specifically stated, only that she was sister of Sir John Holand, of
Northamptonshire. That Elizabeth was a Holand is proven by several
records, the first being a Fynes pedigree in the published Visitation
of Sussex which states:

"Sr Roger Fynes knt. = Elizabeth d. of…. Holland of com. Northampton."
[Reference: T. Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633–4 (H.S.P. 53)
(1905): 11–12].

Confirmation of Elizabeth Fiennes' maiden name is likewise provided by
Sussex Arch. Colls. 4 (1851): 148–152, which reports that Elizabeth
Holand's arms (azure semée of fleur-de-lis) "existed in painted glass
in the east window of the Chapel of the Castle."

Additional concrete evidence of Elizabeth's maiden name is provided by
an interesting record found on the helpful A2A online catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). The following item is taken
from Centre for Kentish Studies: Barrett-Lennard Manuscripts,
Catalogue Ref. U1384/E5:

 

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-04/1083173128

 

Thank you

 

by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 4 (46.1k points)
edited by Bettye Carroll
Bettye -

Richardson does specifically state her parents in the source I referenced above. (Royal Ancestry, Vol 3, p 297, 298; Vol 2, p 580.)

Have you reviewed that source?
I think Bettye is forwarding a Richardson post, presumably not the last
Thanks, RJ. I missed that.

Yes, that 2004 email seems to be updated by his 2013 book.

Thanks RJ, Thanks Bettye

In fact, in the same thread, Richardson circles back the next day where he connects her to a father, Sir John Holand (living 1406).

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-04/1083255615

This post, and the attached proofs, seem to form the start of his argument for the conclusions in his 2013 book, Royal Ancestry

Following this line down from his father, Robert de Holand (Holland-597), it doesn't appear her father has a profile, yet. It does look like she is connected to the wrong John Holland. 

Thank you,PM Eyestone for taking the time to follow through on this question!

Bettye
Hi! I'm reviewing a Magna Carta trail to Say that goes through Roger & noticed that his wife's parents are still incorrect when compared against Richardson's information. Unless something else came up, I intend to add correct parents. Cheers, Liz
Thank you, Liz Shifflett, this is super great help! Always a plus when we are working to make wikiTree more accurate! :-)
B
Thanks for the thanks :D

All done on the changes. The profiles for Roger & Elizabeth (Holand) Fiennes align with Richardson's latest research (in Royal Ancestry, except for Richardson has Holand & WikiTree has Holland).

Cheers, Liz
Thank you, Liz, I have ordered a set of the Royal Ancestry, and hope to be more productive soon.

Thanks, and Best Regards,

B
You'll love having them. I only received my copies a short time ago, and they already look like I've had them for years!
0 votes
I have an old fantasy Fiennes line that I took all the way back to Haute Lorraine, and from there you can go to the Hapsburg-Lorraine Dynasty. But with intervening females, the Fiennes name dropped out along the way.

I have the parents of Elizabeth Holand (actually, I used "ll", but I'll change that) as being John de Holand, 1363 Northamptonshire - 1400 Pleshey, Sussex. Her mother supposedly Elizabeth Plantagenet, 1364 Leicester - 1425 Buford, Shropshire. But I just took that off of Ancestry trees.
by P H G2G Crew (460 points)

Hi Philip & Welcome to WikiTree! Please re-read this discussion & her posted biography. As of the 2013 Richardson publication of Royal Ancestry, her parents are Sir John Holand and his 2nd wife Margaret (Sir John's dates from his profile: abt. 1348-aft. 1409).

WikiTree's Magna Carta Project uses Richardson as its main source. See more [here].

Cheers, Liz

This stained-glass window from Herstmonceux Castle shows the combined arms of Roger Fiennes and the Holand family (Sir John Holland, Elizabeth's father -- whose grandfather was  Robert de Holand., 1st Lord Holand).

https://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/54102.html

The right side shows the arms of Holand: Azure, semy-de-lis a lion rampant guardant argent

"Heraldic Panel with the Coat of Arms of Sir Roger Fiennes (1384-1449) and His Wife, Elizabeth Holland of Northamptonshire." From the chapel of Herstmonceux Castle, Sussex. Collection of the Philadelphia Museum of Art. c. 1441-1450, Stained glass. Gallery 215, second floor. Accession Number: 1952-90-3 Gift of Mrs. Widener Dixon, 1952

 

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