Are these Magna Carta relationships really possible?

+10 votes
765 views

Happy holidays fellow WikiTreers!

I only just looked to see IF I descend from ANY Magna Carta Surety Barons, and this is what came up:

Missy’s Surety Barons Connections

If I really descend from all those barons (the ones that have ancestor next to them), is that common? I know I descend from quite a few very long lines on my father’s side, but wow!

Hugh (Bigod) le Bigod (abt.1185-bef.1225) ancestor 
Robert (Ros) de Ros (abt.1170-abt.1227) ancestor 
Gilbert (Clare) de Clare (abt.1180-1230) ancestor 
John (Clavering) FitzRobert (bef.1191-bef.1241) ancestor 
John (Lacy) de Lacy (abt.1192-1240) ancestor 
Henry (Bohun) de Bohun (abt.1175-1220) ancestor 
William (Albini) d'Aubigny (abt.1151-1236) ancestor 
Saher (Quincy) de Quincy (abt.1165-1219) ancestor 
Robert de Vere (aft.1164-bef.1221) ancestor 
Robert FitzWalter (abt.1180-1235) ancestor 
Roger Bigod (abt.1144-bef.1221) ancestor 
Richard (Clare) de Clare (abt.1153-bef.1217) ancestor 
William (Mowbray) de Mowbray (abt.1173-bef.1224) ancestor 
William Malet (bef.1174-bef.1216) ancestor
William (Huntingfield) de Huntingfield (abt.1160-bef.1221) ancestor

Thank you! 

Missy smiley

WikiTree profile: Missy Berryann
in Genealogy Help by Missy Berryann G2G6 Pilot (219k points)

How many do you descend from? I am very curious.

I got a similar number. However, there is a lot of questionable genealogy floating around and some of it finds its way into Wikitree.
I get a similar number. However, I don’t put a whole lot of credence in them: I concur with Vance.
I am missing a connection to William Malet so far. I am reasonably confident about the other ones. (I took a deep breath and broke a connection someone once put in which would have given me a Malet descent.) These descents are not via American gateways.
I descend from eleven of them and as I have been working on my tree for a very long time I am able to trace back to all of them.  I started long before computers and the Internet even existed so I haven’t been copying dubious trees off the net.
Hello, Missy!

We are 10th cousins thru Elizabeth Cooke.

This is fun!
Hello Shelley, Hello cousin! That is very cool.

13 Answers

+8 votes
 
Best answer
They were members of the same class of Anglo-Normans, and this was a group which continued to inter-marry for many more generations to come. So if you descend from one, there is always a good chance you descend from more.

To avoid confusion, if you have a lot of recent British ancestry then the chances of this should be higher, not lower, than it would be for any Americans whose link is via one of the Magna Carta gateways which we study. Remember that the specific Magna Carta gateway people which the project works on were EARLY American immigrants.
by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Pilot (142k points)
selected by Living ye

Hello Andrew,

I do descend from a few Mayflower passengers and many many very early English immigrants. My father’s families have been in America since before the 1700s and most came from England.

I have one recent English ancestor, my maternal 2nd great grandfather came from England to America in about 1861, but we can not determine his ancestors except his father.

I may have to look more into my gateway ancestors.

Thank you for helping me understand.

You're welcome. I am Australian by the way but for both countries it is often the migrants who are the tough ones to track.

Hello Andrew in Australia! I have been lucky with quite a few of my lines. They were Quakers from England with very good paper trails. I have others with horrible paper trails and are very hard to trace. crying

The Mayflower seems to be a boat of family :) I bet you're connected to me somehow :)
+8 votes

Blimey, nine are 22/23 GGF, one a 1st Cousin, one a 2nd Cousin (all maternal side) but four - JC,WA,SQ and RdeV are not in my tree I must go back at some point and research these four! smiley

by Malc Rowlands G2G6 Mach 4 (48.5k points)

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:MyConnections&u=31174084&c=Surety_Barons

I have 24 of them myself. All ancestors. No connections. I am next in line for the crown it seems as well :)

Branwen, It looks like you have three who are ancestors:

25 generations   Find Relationship   Robert FitzWalter (abt.1180-1235) ancestor 
26 generations   Find Relationship   Saher (Quincy) de Quincy (abt.1165-1219) ancestor 
27 generations   Find Relationship   Roger Bigod (abt.1144-bef.1221) ancestor 

That is totally awesome! smiley

I am fascinated with my ancestry! It really is amazing where we come from and the connections we have  
+10 votes
Yes, it's perfectly possible.  There was a lot of intermarrying, and some of them are related to each other.
by Ros Haywood G2G Astronaut (2.0m points)
reshown by Missy Berryann
But there are also a lot of opportunities for erroneous connections in the last 900 years.  Most of us are descended from plain-old ordinary folks.

Ros, thank you! That does make sense.

Kathie, I descend mostly from “ordinary folks.” wink

+15 votes
To be sure, you really need to review each connection to be sure you agree the data is correct.  With that being said, it is so far back that finding convincing data is difficult. And one final comment.  It is probable that you are related because their are so many connection opportunities that even if one is wrong, there is another one there on a different branch.
by Gurney Thompson G2G6 Pilot (454k points)
The Magna Carta Project helps with this. We verify select lineages between colonial American Gateway Ancestors and the surety barons who had descendants. Magna Carta Trails are developed and "badged" once each connection and profile on the trail has been reviewed. Then, it is up to you to verify the connections between yourself and the Gateway Ancestor (or, if you're not American, between yourself and a MCP badged profile). Many people find that if they are related to one baron, they are related to many others.
Further, "My Connections" shows that I am related to 16 barons, however only one of those lines (Peter Worden to Robert de Ros) has been verified by the Magna Carta Project. I've personally checked the connections on profiles between Peter Worden and myself (though I still need to find the time to improve those profiles). So many trails ... so little time. :-)

Gurney and Traci,

Thank you for the information! 

The Magna Carta Project sounds like something I would be interested in. smiley

+8 votes
I have a similar situation if you look at my profile page.   But, I know the relationships all are suspect due to some "unproven" gateway ancestors.
by Robin Lee G2G6 Pilot (862k points)

Hello Robin,

We are 12th cousins! heart I had to look! laugh

Missy we are 14th... how cool:)
+6 votes
I am descended from 4

26 generations      William Malet (bef.1174-bef.1216)

26 generations      Henry (Bohun) de Bohun (abt.1175-1220)

26 generations      Robert de Vere (aft.1164-bef.1221)

26 generations      Saher (Quincy) de Quincy (abt.1165-1219)

All through Joan (Pole) Harpeden (abt. 1370 - abt. 1434) Pole-102 , my16th great grandmother

I am connected to the rest, between 27 and 32 generations. (and probably would find several of them are ancestors too, if I researched some other lines).

If you are descended from at least one, you are probably connected to all of them. The families all intermarried
by Janet Gunn G2G6 Pilot (158k points)
Hello Janet,

I am now seeing that too. I did not check out my connections before now. Most of them are through my paternal grandmother’s early Colonial lineage.

I think it is cool that so many of us descend from many of the surety barons.
+4 votes
Hi everyone, I had wondered if it were really possible to be related to so many of the Barons too. It seems there are so many of us who are descended from them, so, great!!

I have 15 x 24th, 25th, and 26th gr grandfathers, 6 x 24th and 25th gr grand uncles and 4 x 1st and 2nd cousins 25 and 26 x removed.
by Maxine Keske G2G6 (6.2k points)

Hello Maxine!

That is so cool. Now I want to see if I am related to all of you. heart You and I are 15th cousins once removed through my Sinclair (paternal grandmother’s) line. I looked to see if we were related after you said you also descend from so many barons. smiley

Yes, were 15th cousins!  Great to know you! Since there were others who were related to a number of Barons, I suspect we could form a club!
+8 votes
A quick check of a couple of your lines show they go through known gateway ancestors, and are lines which have been checked and certified by the Magna Carta Project.  In general, without checking all of the lines, yes you can confidently say you descend from these people.
by Joe Cochoit G2G6 Pilot (259k points)

That is really cool to know! smiley  Thank you for letting me know.

+7 votes
The children of powerful men tended to marry the children of other powerful men, so the lines of many of these families and other powerful families tend to mesh and twine together over the intervening years. Some of those lines continued into other powerful families. Some lines continued into less powerful but perhaps wealthy families. Along the way, someone fell afoul of some bit of misfortune or hardship and emigrated. A few dozen generations later, here we all are, so many of us descended from all or most of the Barons who left any lines to this day and age.
Incidentally, most of us likely also descended from the cow herd who tended the Baron's beef, the stable hand who shoveled what stable hands shovel, and the peasant who resented the other two for their good fortune. It's just that the last three mentioned didn't leave much in the way of records of their lives the way Barons did.
by J Briller G2G6 Mach 1 (12.0k points)
+6 votes

I get a dozen or so Magna Carta ancestors, all of them the supposed ancestors of this guy:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Smith-51517

There were dozens of Henry Smiths at any given time. He "may have been a son of Sir Thomas Smythe". There  were hundreds of Thomas Smiths. Many theoretical possibilities are offered in this profile, but no direct proof. Henry Smith is a slim reed to lean on.

Maybe I should cancel the order for the coats of arms embroidered on the pillow cases. 

by Living Mead G2G6 Mach 7 (73.0k points)
edited by Living Mead

Oh no, Henry Smith?! laugh

+5 votes
I have never been a great supporter of the Magna Carta project because I disapprove of the project being tagged on the profiles of Scots who spent their lives fighting and often dying at the hands of their English neighbours.

HOWEVER I must speak up for the Project Leaders and enthusiastic members of the Project. They are scrupulous in their verification of profiles and usually hone in very quickly on dodgy and usually improperly sourced profiles added to the Project. If in doubt you should provately consult one of the Project Leaders. They really know their stuff.
by Mark Sutherland-Fisher G2G6 Mach 4 (45.0k points)
The problem, as I see it, is that there are 25 or 30 generations between Magna Carta and someone living today. However scrupulous the Magna Carta team may be, their work covers only a limited number of generations. There are plenty of faulty connections in later generations that do not fall within their remit.
+7 votes
When I first ran through the MC list, WT had me related to all of them on my Dad's side of the family.  I finally decided to investigate further.  I could see that all these connections depended on 3 hinge or gateway ancestors with 10 of them going through one, so I decide to work on the one that had me related to 10 of them and today I have 10 fewer MC ancestors.  It was a lot of work and took me months.  I haven't had enough interest to try the others yet.  Lots of fairytales and wishful thinking from internet conflated nonsense in many of those supposed relationships.
by LaMyra Morton G2G6 Mach 4 (43.5k points)

Thank you LaMyra,

Mine are also on my fathers side. wink I may just have to investigate further!

+3 votes
Actually, according to Wikitree I am related to 24 out of 25. Thirteen of them are direct ancestors.
by Mary Leachman G2G6 Mach 1 (15.1k points)
edited by Mary Leachman

Related questions

+10 votes
3 answers
+8 votes
4 answers
+7 votes
0 answers
+13 votes
0 answers
+8 votes
1 answer

WikiTree  ~  About  ~  Help Help  ~  Search Person Search  ~  Surname:

disclaimer - terms - copyright

...