Have Identity Crisis - Need Arborist Mentor

Question

I ran into a problem that looked like a single simple mistake.  As I looked at immediate family members, it became an order of magnitude more complicated and you might say I can't see the forest for the trees at this point.

It started with a Holocaust survivor who emigrated from Germany to the United States during World War II.  He had 2 marriages, with both children from the first wife, who died about a year before he left Germany.  The abandoned gedcom says his second marriage was in US, but I documented that he traveled here with the second wife ... and an 8 year old child, who cannot be from his first marriage.  The next thing I noticed was that the daughter from the first marriage was born 1 year before dear old dad!!!

I have a couple of sources, but not necessarily better than the original gedcom, however they do give me a starting point and are better than nothing.  The gedcom info mostly agrees with them.  In this case, I used the more extensive one to verify the family back as far as it goes and put notes about what is in the source on the relevant profile pages.  This didn't help, other than to give me a clearer picture of the mess.

If you start from Moritz Gottschalk, you'll see where my troubles began.  If you click on his wife Regina, you can see all my notes by surfing back through her family.

I'm now thinking that this Moritz did not marry Regina - she must have been married to a different Moritz - but at this point, I'm not even sure who I am any more.

Comments

I am sure I can be of no real help to you... but I had to say I support you in heart.  Hang in there Gaile.  It sounds as bad as it gets right now, so the bright side is it can only get better.  I hope someone is able to assist.

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awwww, THANX Robert - commiseration helps!

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Hi Gaile,

Yikes!  I am also commiserating with you.

You are definitely correct about two Regina Gottschalks.  NEHGS  Social Security data base shows one 6/4/1917 - 5/6/2009. Social Security Number: 383187557, and the other 9/20/1893 - 7/1967. Social Security Number: 068245871

They are spelled exactly the same, just as the profile.  There used to be a code used in issuing SS numbers, wherein the first three numbers designated the state born.

I did see this (not sure it is going to fit here, if not it is titled, "Impact of the Holocaust on the descendants of Jakob Moyses and Sara of Meudt," by Dennis Aaron.  It does not list sources, but several people worked on it, and on pages 2-3 he lists some Holocost data bases (all of which you probably already know).

Page 14 lists only Erna as deceased in 1945, and both Moritz and Regina as her parents.  On page 13, yet a different Regina Fuldheim was deceased, and she was not the wife of Moritz!  More complications.  Maybe you will see something helpful there.

http://www2.genealogy.net/vereine/ArGeWe/jiw/121004_Impact_of_the_Holocaust_on_the_Descendants_of_Jakob_Moyses_and_Sara_of_Meudt.pdf

Anyway ... sorry I could not really help, except to tell you that you are appreciated!  Thank you for working on this project (and for all you do!).

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Cynthia,

As a matter of fact, you have helped immensely, although the problem is far from solved.  You set me off in another direction I had not previously explored.

I started looking for Alice, the 8 year old "daughter" who was on the ship manifest, but her trail is as cold as the rest of the family.  I did find something on My Heritage that seems to support 2 different people named Moritz Gottschalk, with each one having one of the 2 wives/children combinations that are both on "my" Moritz here.  The person whose tree they are on is Seth Frielich.  I checked and he is not a WikiTree member, so I googled him and (if the ONLY one I found is the right one) found his email address, so I have just written to him.

The Dennis Aron document you found is the same one I have been relying on heavily as an index to the pages of testimony before the tribunals documenting Holocaust victims.  The family records in there match "my" gedcom with almost 100% agreement in all facts.  In fact, that document includes an acknowledgement to Sally Bruckheimer for information - that is the person who uploaded "my" gedcom here, so I'm not surprised that everything matches so well.  I know about the other Regina Fuldheim also - she's in "my" gedcom, too, and you're right - she is not a player in this.

THANX for all your efforts and the sympathy!

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I believe that the first three numbers of a Social Security Number indicate where the SSN was issued, not where the person was born. The SSN starting 068 was probably issued somewhere on the East Coast of the US; while the SSN starting 383 was probably issued in the midwestern part of the US.

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THANX for your trouble, Jess.  I'm sorry you went to that effort, though, because the SSN's are not relevant here.  There is no doubt about who Regina (Fuldheim) Gottschalk was, plus she never came to the US.  The question here is about her husband - I am convinced that the Moritz Gottschalk she was married to is a different Moritz Gottschalk than the one she is linked to in WikiTree.

Answer 1

My first thought is that this must be a case of conflation of two different persons. But short of looking at the primary sources this is impossible to tell. Since most dates are after 1875 and this is Prussia at this time, there should be civil records at the respective Standesämter for the towns in question, a look at primary sources should, therefore, be possible. Just not sure how feasible that is, since there would be costs involved.

Comments

Helmut,

I was thrilled to see your name on the answer because you ALWAYS have such pearls of wisdom to offer.  This one is a bitter pill to swallow, though.  I was hoping that someone with the knowledge and experience that I lack would wave a magic wand and say disconnect these people and connect those people and - presto - everything fits into place neatly.

My impression, based on finding a lot of German records when I look for German names in Family Search, is that there were no records kept of Jewish births/marriages/deaths.  Are you saying that these records will be found to exist, but are only available for a price?

By the way, there is another Regina Fuldheim (Fuldheim-5) who was in the same gedcom ... but she's married to someone else in another branch of this same family.  I also did a double take there, because so many of the names are repeated - this one has a brother named Moritz,  I'm sure that this one isn't involved in the current mess.

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The civil registers were and are kept at the equivalent of city hall by the civil authorities. It's essentially the same as requesting a copy of a birth certificate, they'll charge a fee. Prussia "emancipated" its jewish citizens in 1812, and it mandated civil registration in 1874. FamilySearch records are pretty spotty when it comes to Germany, and often have more church records than civil records.

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Then it might not help - the Moritz Gottschalk I'm looking for is the father of children born in the late 1880's, so he would have been born before 1874.  It doesn't really matter, though, because I'm not willing to pay for the information.

Thank you for that information, though.  If I ever am willing to pay for information, I'll know where to look for it.

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German law did require registration, but apparently it was done with the local church.  Synagogues were not allowed to register vital events, so Jews had to go to their closest church.  I have found Jewish births and marriages in a separate section especially for Juden at the back a Lutheran church record.  (I don't know how long this was done, but I found the records for an 1874 birth.)  So, you might see if the parish records for the local church are available.

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OK ... now the only problem is how do I find out the name of the local church and, after that, how do I try to get to see their records, when I don't speak, read, or write German?

On top of that, I don't even know what I'm looking for!  I have no idea what the name of the town is now or was in "about 1850" which is all I know about the birth date of the Moritz Gottschalk I'm hoping to find.

I think I'm way over my head in this and need someone with much more knowledge and experience to take over here.

Answer 2

Gaile,

I love your question. I have found myself in the same position often. I have been in contact with Dennis Aron and have access to his latest information on Ancestry (take it for what it is worth), where Moritz Gottschalk is shown as being born about 1850 and having died in 1927. He also is shown with the spouses that are listed on the wikitree profile. Out of the three children Dennis has listed, only Erna has a birth year (1889). With Regina (?-1938), Milton and Erna are the listed children. With Gustel (1898-1993), the daughter's information is "private", but she was married to Norman Oppenheimer (1929-1990) and had two sons and one daughter.

Not sure if any of this helps, but hope it does!

 

Ron

Comments

Ron,

THANX a bunch!  It does help - at least Dennis has changed the life span of Moritz to allow for it to be reasonable for him to have been Regina's husband and father of her 2 children.

He is definitely wrong about 1 thing, though - he should have ADDED that Mortiz as a 2nd person instead of just changing his birth/death years.

I am absolutely sure that the birth/death years are correct for the Moritz who married Gustel and had the daughter with her.  The immigration record showing that threesome is in his profile, as well as the SSDI info giving his birth/death dates.

I found a tree on My Heritage (where I am not a member, so can't see it all) that definitely shows 2 different people named Moritz Gottschalk, 1 married to Regina with 2 children and the other married to Gustel with 1 child.

I'm in the middle of writing a folow-on to this question, asking if I have enough info to support removing Regina from her marriage to the Moritz whose profile is here.

THANX again!