Any objection to the patronymic Albertse(n) as LNAB for Hendrik Albertse Ploeg?

+10 votes
126 views
Hendrick Alberts(e) Ploeg(h) was born circa 1650 in Holland or New Netherland. He was the progenitor of a large family in New Netherland. All the profiles for him use the last name Ploeg(h), but sourced information cited in Ploeg-4 indicates that the name Ploeg(h) did not appear until circa 1700.

I propose that the patronymic should be used for his LNAB. I don't know if it should be spelled Albertse, Albertsen, or possibly Alberts.
WikiTree profile: Hendrik Albertse Ploeg
in Genealogy Help by Ellen Smith G2G Astronaut (1.1m points)

3 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer

As usual, I have received some valuable education from these answers and comments.

After some consideration, I propose to make "Albertse" the LNAB for this man. I recognize that the experts say this is not how his patronymic would have been spelled in the Netherlands. However:

  • None of the sources I've seen (there aren't very many sources) identifies him as Albertsz or Alberts. (This means that it's unlikely that anyone would ever search for those spellings as an LNAB for this man.)
  • It appears to me that transcriptions of New Netherlands records are fairly consistent in reserving the "s" form of the patronymic (e.g., Alberts or Pieters or Jacobs) for females, while the "se" form (e.g., Albertse or Pieterse or Jacobse) is most commonly associated with males.

It's because of those bulleted observations that I propose to use Albertse.

Comments on that approach?

by Ellen Smith G2G Astronaut (1.1m points)
selected by Philip van der Walt
Well argumented and reasoned Ellen; you have convinced me.

And me smiley since it's almost impossible to find the man or his parents here in Holland (whatever patronym we use ) guess the one he was registered with in America is fine ,and the people who really try to find him (or his parents), most likely already would try search for him with all kinds of patronyms .Found a whole lot of Hendrik Albertsz and/or Alberts in Amsterdam ,even some people named Ploegh ...maybe if there was an exact birthdate in some American records ,that would help .

 

 

Bea: I had to smile at your comment about possibly finding a record in Amsterdam if we could find an exact birthdate in American records. We are far from having an exact birthdate. The main thing we know about this man is that in 1674 he started appearing in church records as the father of babies baptized in the Reformed Dutch Church of Kingston (New York). There is no marriage record for him. There is not even a baptism record for his first-born child. We also don't know when or where he died.

New Netherland was not a highly civilized place!

PS - There is, however, a suggestion that he may have been the Hendrick Albertsen who was listed as a farm laborer on the passenger list of the Dutch ship D’Vos (The Fox) that arrived in New Amsterdam on 14 November 1662.

Hahaha really a needle eeh ,or a huge brick wall cheeky Well maybe some day we by accident ,stumble over some ''forgotten'' record(s) or regest(s) in which he or both of them are mentioned with parents and dates of course .That would be soo great 

Thnx and greet from Holland again

Luckely the ''der Kinderen'' familymembers were pretty easy to find ,added all children of [[Der_Kinderen-5|Adam der Kinderen]] already with the Baptism records (Amsterdam Archive) only one still missing (first child)

+2 votes

Yes if Ploeg is of a later date then indeed, the patronymic would be more appropriate. But it would most probably have been Albertsz (the 'z' being [almost] silent / inaudible), when written expressed as Alberts or Albertse ...

by Philip van der Walt G2G6 Pilot (152k points)
Interesting. I've seldom seen the "sz" spelling of patronymics in records for New Netherlands settlers, and no source that I've run across for this man uses the "Albertsz" spelling. (However, I've not researched him very hard.)

Any hypotheses as to why the "se" and "sen" spellings would be prevalent in records for immigrants to North America? I can imagine that the transcribers of the original records deliberately anglicized them, but there may be another explanation.
+2 votes
Patronym could have been Alberts or Albertsz  I'll try if I can find some registration ,and add it in his Bio when found ,have to go now but will let you know ok ?
by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (277k points)
Thanks.

However, please note: This man's parents, birthdate, and birthplace are unknown (it's not even known whether he was born in Holland or America), so it will not be easy to find a record that can be conclusively determined to be about him.

An explaination could be that the names were noted down phonetically without the z - it being silent and all - the first to be dropped would be the z (which to the ear would sound like se), and then the e, eventually the s ... ... in just under 50 years New Amsterdam went over to English rule and Dutch (as well as all the other European languages and dialects) were swamped - elsewhere in Europe and the Cape Colony there are many records with sz ...

Back again smiley,see this is the Husband of Tryntje (Pieters) Ostrander I added a baptism record of her in her Bio from Amsterdam ?? I'll try if a can find maybe a marriage record or a intended marriage record there also :) Trijntje has Pieters for patronym so guess than maybe you should go for the Alberts without the ''z'' ,but I'll try if I can find him in the Amsterdam archives also .If there is one I'll add it in his bio .

Fathers patronym according the baptism record is Pieter Carstens ,so guess that should be corrected as well?Although him being from Danmark and since I don't know a thing about the patronym/naming system there ,guess at  the birth of Trijntje in Holland they Dutchified his patronym ?

 

Added both intended marriage records for her father ,and well ,so really Amsterdam (or Dutch), they didn't seem to bother about accurate registration of peoples names those days ,so all kinds of variations of the last names and/or patronyms .Didn't find Hendrik Alberts or Albertsz or Ploegh combined with Trijntje Pieters .Still searching but I'm ok with both variations Alberts or Albertsz ,should we find some prove it should be some other version we always can see what's best for last name...
Tryntje went to New Netherland when she was a little girl. She married Hendrik Alberts Ploeg there (in America), not in Holland.

Yes I noticed one of the profiles had a marriage mentioned in America,but well I hoped maybe there was a intended marriage record somewhere ,but you're right searching for Hendrik Alberts or Albertsz is like trying to find a needle in a hayestack,lots of Hendrik Alberts (or Albertsz) here in Holland ,guess miljons of them .But for an other family there also was a marriage in America mentioned/added and found the intended marriage of that couple in Amsterdam ,also a child of these two was said born in America,but his baptism I also found in Amsterdam.So as long as there are not to many accurate sources,the only ''source'' was the ancestry.tree (couldn't view it,no member) added ,guess we can always keep on trying to find the ''needles'' eeh smiley

Thnx for your reply and greetings from Holland 

 

Thanks for taking the time to look for these people in Dutch records, Bea. I am excited (and always a little surprised) whenever we can find European records for a person who emigrated to America.

Several weeks ago I worked on another international connection that might interest you. This is the family of [[Der_Kinderen-2|John der Kinderen]]. An American source stated that New Netherlands settler [[Willems-6|Joosje Willems]] was the widow of Jan Verkinderen, and I found a Dutch-language source on the history of the der Kinderen family of England and Holland, including the marriage of John der Kinderen and Joosje Willems. The Dutch source had no information about Joosje and her husband after their marriage and the baptisms of two children, but I gained confidence that this was the same Joosje Willems when I saw that her children born in Holland (who apparently died young) had the same first names as two of her children born later in America. (However, I think the Dutch author was wrong when he or she guessed that John der Kinderen is a man who was buried in Amsterdam in 1667. I believe that this man was dead before 1661, when his "widow" married again in New Netherland.)

I should add a warning about the der Kinderen story. One of the American sources is a compilation of Ulster County probate records that was made by Gustav Anjou, a notorious fabricator of genealogies. The Ulster County compilation generally seems to be accepted, but I don't know if anyone has validated it -- and I don't know if Anjou is connected to the Dutch-language documents about the der Kinderen family.

''Added 12 Jan 2017: I created a new free-space page about the Ulster County probate records.''

Hi Ellen ,

No thnx needed,love search for them in the archives and other places,the NNS project is like a king size puzzle ,so great and exciting indeed when you can find the little missing pieces (prove) eeh  ??Of course I'm glad to try if I can help find some prove/records this family too smiley

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