Can someone help me see if haplogroups will confirm/disprove which Joseph Babin/Marie Landry pair led to my line?

+8 votes
308 views

I swear whenever I start looking into my Joseph Babin's I end up so confused... I'll try to minimize it the best I can while I explain.

My 2x ggf was Auguste Francois Babin b. 1778, bt in St James Parish. His parents are Joseph Babin and Marie Landry. Neither his baptism or marriage record give the names of his grandparents.

This is where it gets confusing. There are two Joseph Babin / Marie Landry married pairs in LA at the same time. One wed in Feb 1768 in Cabanocey (I'll call these couple 1) and one in Jun 1768 in what is now Ascencion Parish (I'll call these couple 2; they are who I currently have as my 3x ggfs). I've tried to get the actual marriage records, but the Diocese was unable to find them. They are not recorded in parish record publications either. In various places, the same Marie Landry is used for the spouse in both couples. She is listed as Anne Marie or Marie Anne and d/o Abraham & Marguerite Flan. She mostly goes by Marie.

First let me say that I know if I am able to use DNA haplogroup (Hpg) to figure this out, it will have to be by working with sisters of the two Josephs. For Couple 1, I don't have a profile in mind here on wikitree, but for Couple 2...[Babin-1521] works as her marriage record does indicate her mother was Angelique Landry. 

Joseph of couple 1 is the s/o Joseph Babin & Anne Theriot. Her Hpg should be H1 from Francoise Corbineau. Joseph of couple 2 is the s/o Joseph Babin & Angelique Landry. Her Hpg should be H4A from Perrine Rau. Couple 1 is best represented by [Babin-1566] and Couple 2 by [Babin-22].

The Acadian Memorial Database doesn't mention Couple 2. They show Couple 1 as parents of 3 children: Louis b. 1763 (before marriage--Acadians in Gray says from another marriage), Marguerite b. Dec 1769, and Elizabeth b. 1771. The 1769 Cabanocey census is definitely this couple as Anne Theriot is present; however son Louis is not.(?)

Looking at DIOBR there are the following children born to "A" Joseph Babin & Marie Landry. None of the records give grand-parents names (figures...frown)

  • Elizabeth/Isabelle bt. 23 May 1771 (SJA-1,9)
  • Marie Marguerite b. 27 Mar 1773 (ASC-1,13)
  • Jean Louis b. 17 Nov 1775 (ASC-1,34)
  • Josephe bt. 31 Mar 1777 (SJA-1, 33a)
  • Augustin bn 27 Nov 1778 (ASC-1,51)-note sponsor w/ same name as spouse of Joseph #2's sister M. Magdeleine who wed Pierre LeBlanc
  • M. Magdelena b 12 Mar 1780 (ASC-1, 101)-her future spouse Joseph Roger seems to be witness at Augustin's marriage in 1800. Augustin is desc. as Augusto of St. James Parish- (ASM-2,55)
  • Juliana b18 Jul 1781 (ASC-1, 76 & 77)
  • Luisa b 28 Feb 1784 (ASC-1, 101)
  • Escolastica-- no baptism info, but wed Pedro Bourgeois 12 Feb 1803. (SJA-2,67)

Censuses give us the following:

  • M. Magdeleine- 9mos old so b. Dec 1769... Sept 1770 Asc Census

 

  • Louis- age 14, so b. 1761 (prev. wife?).... Apr 1777 Cab. Census
  • Elizabeth-age 6, so b. 1771 (same census as above)
  • Marguerite-age 4, so b 1773 (same census as above)
  • BUT NO MAGDELEINE b. Dec 1769 from 1770 Census and NO Jean Louis or Josephe who should have been born by then. My Augustin wouldn't be born yet.

Acadian Memorial puts these all as if talking about the same family, but it seems to me that there are two.

I think the M. Magdeleine b. Dec 1769 was a sister to the father of my Augustin... based on it possibly being her spouse who was sponsor at his baptism.

I think the M. Magdeleine b. 1780 is from the same parents as my Augustin, based on her husband being a witness at his marriage.

"Acadians in Gray" has my Augustin being a son of Couple 1... the only son to get married. I used to have Couple 1 as my direct line, but changed it a long time ago.

____________

Now that I've totally confused everything.

IS there currently enough DNA info available on wikitree to confirm/support/disprove that my line goes through Angelique Landry? ... either by looking at Hbg or by looking at the y-DNA of the different Joseph Babins (which I haven't even gone into... since if both options are descended from Antoine b. 1631... wouldn't the results be the same? )

My mtDNA+ results are being processed. Will this help in any way or do I need someone with either Angelique Landry or Anne Theriot in their direct line?

Does the likelihood that the spouse of a known daughter of Angelique Landry was the sponsor at my 2x ggf's baptism at least support the idea? Or am I grasping at straws?

I've now spent most of the day trying to make sense of this question. Help!


UPDATE

It seems, as I feared, that there is not currently enough DNA evidence, nor does it seem likely that there is an individual test that I can take that will clear it up. Hopefully, in time, as more people get tested... it will become clearer.

 

 

WikiTree profile: Joseph Babin
in Genealogy Help by Donna Storz G2G6 Mach 2 (22.1k points)
edited by Donna Storz

regarding:

1) 'since if both options are descended from Antoine b. 1631... wouldn't the results be the same?'

mtDNA follows the female line - therefore, if you could get females to test they would be related to the Joseph's spouses rather than the maternal common ancestor of each.

2) Will this help in any way or do I need someone with either Angelique Landry or Anne Theriot in their direct line?

Definately the more results you can get, the better, particularly to solve a questionable relationship. It is quite likely that other descendants of these lines have made the same genealogical error, associating themselves with the wrong couple. By getting many people to test, you will get a trend of different results and would be able to differentiate these results to the different families (as the Bartlett Society has done.)

3) Does the likelihood that the spouse of a known daughter of Angelique Landry was the sponsor at my 2x ggf's baptism at least support the idea? Or am I grasping at straws?

I am thinking that is highly probable!

Thanks. I do realize that about the maternal line... I was specifically refering to the y-DNA and why I hadn't even looked into that... ie it would be the same.

3 Answers

+2 votes

I believe DNA for genealogical purposes is advancing rapidly. The availability of DNA testing and matching are growing with sites such as Family tree dna and 23 and me to name a few. The costs are coming down and the amount of people getting tested is going up. I believe there will come a time that we will be able to input our DNA results and get our ancestry with the touch of a button! Until that time, we are in the early stages of DNA for genealogy matching. Wikitree has some great tools for DNA by adding your results others that upload their results to known ancestors can prove a connection. See DNA Features post.

With that said, yes, you do need to know a family member connection to add to a wikitree profile in order to prove a DNA connection. When two (or more) members have been tested and they upload their results to wikitree, you can see the match in the ancestor’s profile. You could also contact living family members with a connection to the ancestor you wish to prove and ask them to get tested. I can imagine that would be a pretty weird conversation, but if you could convince someone to do it, your problem is solved.

There are DNA family studies that have been around for a while. For example, the Bartlett Society, has “The Bartlett Surname DNA Project” available for living Bartlett’s to prove their relationship to Robert and Mary Bartlett. This has proven many descendants and disproven others.

You can also create your own DNA Study on Wikitree, example: Mary Josephine Giroux DNA Study. With this you can attempt to reach out to possible matches and work on your search using wikitree.

Much luck to you with your research, I wish you all the best!

by Kelly Metzler G2G6 Mach 2 (24.7k points)
0 votes
Donna, I see that Ascension and St. James parish are next to each other in Louisiana.  What are your sources for the two different marriage dates?  It seems to me you very well could be dealing with only one couple.  That's why I'm wondering the source for the dates.  Neither Babin nor Landry seem like terribly common surnames, and it seems highly doubtful two men of the same name married two women of the same name in the same year...  You say that in various places the same names are used, but you don't mention these places.  If it's from ancestry or user submitted trees on familysearch.org, then you can't rely on them.  You need an actual record.  If you're basing the two mariages solely on those, I'd say you've got your first answer already...

I'm not familiar with DIOBR; is it the Diocese of Baton Rouge?  If so, that is your source for the children and parents.  Census records are known to be wrong.  Church records will tend to be right, although names are misspelled, etc.

You say you've had your mtDNA tested.  This goes up your maternal line, so if your descent from Joseph Babin is through a son, your mtDNA test won't help you in this regard.  Do you descend through Augustin?  While the mtDNA of Joseph Babin's wife passed to all of their children, with the sons it stops there, i.e. it doesn't get passed to their children.  As such, to use mtDNA to figure out the mother of Joseph, you'd need a person that descended through a sister of Joseph...  Ditto with determining the mother of Joseph; only her daughters passed her mtDNA on to their children, and only those with daughters would pass her mtDNA on to their children, and on down the line...
by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (414k points)
edited by Darlene Athey-Hill
Thanks for your response.

They are definitely two different couples. Babin & Landry are common surnames among the Acadians/Cajuns... especially at that time when Acadians were first coming to Louisiana. In fact, of the 43 families listed on the Archivo de Indias, Papeles Procedentes de Cuba "List of Acadian Families Who Came to Louisiana to be Established in the Year 1767" there were 5 Babin famiies and 7 Landry families. Papeles de Cuba is the source of the majority of the early Louisiana documents as Louisiana was Spanish-controlled at the time.

In addition to the high number of people of these two surnames, I venture to say just about every Babin family had at least one child with the name Joseph and nearly 100% of Acadian families had at least one daughter with Marie as her first name (although many may have gone by another). Anothe example of the commonness of the names. The Donaldsonville Militia in 1770 had 4 Joseph Babin's.

The sources for the marriage are reputable sources.... Couple 1's marriage is included in Papeles de Cuba 178A which is a list of marriages since the establishment of Cabanocey.  Couple 2's marriage is from 2 different compilations of county/town marriage records in Louisiana.

DIOBR is the Diocese of Baton Rouge. I own the first 9 editions (well 10, since there is a 1-A and 1-B) so I'm very familiar with them. I also have a number of Hebert's compilations. Unfortunately, there are large gaps in the earliest records as there have been hurricanes, floods, fires, etc. that preceeded the compilations.
+1 vote
I have 3 Jospeh Babin's, on paper, as follows; Joseph Babin 1713-1765, married Anne-Marie Landry 1715-1763, parents of Joseph Babin II 1739-1815, married Madeleine Surette 1745-1829, parents of Joseph Babin III 1776-1814, married Marguerite Pothier 1790-1836. That line takes me back to Renee Rau and Christophe Babin. These are Nova Scotia profiles, which may actually be where your line came from.
by Philip Babin G2G Crew (420 points)

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