Is this considered Triangulated?

+4 votes
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Used Gedmatch

Michael Christopher Comer Sr. (1723 - 1802)

Comparing Kit A277384 (James Comer) [Migration - F2 - A] and Kit ET1709405 (James Ward Jr) [23andMe]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPsMinimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cMMismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.

Chr 3 B37 Start Pos'nB37 End Pos'nCentimorgans (cM)SNPs356,350,39562,659,6588.2308

Largest segment = 8.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 8.2cM (0.229 Pct)

Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.2 

Comparing Kit ET1709405 (James Ward Jr) [23andMe] and Kit A210330 (*Chris) [Migration - F2 - A]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPsMinimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cMMismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.

Chr 3 B37 Start Pos'nB37 End Pos'nCentimorgans (cM)SNPs3183,236,106187,220,8229.2254

Largest segment = 9.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 9.2cM (0.256 Pct)

Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.1 

Comparing Kit A277384 (James Comer) [Migration - F2 - A] and Kit A210330 (*Chris) [Migration - F2 - A]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPsMinimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cMMismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.

Chr 3 B37 Start Pos'nB37 End Pos'nCentimorgans (cM)SNPs361,4953,564,11610.7991

Largest segment = 10.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 10.7cM (0.299 Pct)

Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 5.2

WikiTree profile: Michael Comer
in Genealogy Help by James Ward G2G Crew (590 points)

1 Answer

+8 votes
 
Best answer
Unfortunately, no. The three matches are all on chromosome 3 but not the same parts of chromosome 3.

You can see that if you use the one-to-one match tool for each of the comparisons. Look at the "start pos'n" and "end pos'n" columns.

*Chris and James Comer match from 61,495 to 3,564,116

James Ward Jr and James Comer match from 56,350,395 to 62,659,658

*Chris and James Ward Jr match from 183,236,106 to 187,220,822

For triangulation, you need a single segment on which all three people match. Otherwise, they may have inherited the different segments from different people.

(FWIW, Edison Williams, who knows far more than I do about DNA, has also noted that we don't have good evidence that even using triangulated matches works. But if the matches are on different segments, they clearly could have come from different ancestors.)
by Harry Ide G2G6 Mach 9 (90.2k points)
selected by James Ward

I understand. I suspected that was the case but wanted to confirm it. Having a background in genetics, myself, specifically using techniques such as PCR and TRFLP analysis in understanding soil microbial communities, I think that DNA can give us insight into "possible" relationships. However, they don't fully confirm them especially when looking at Autosomal DNA sequences because during meiosis genetic mutations occur like during crossing over events. When considering paternal haplogroups, i.e. mutations found on sex chromosomes, even then it is questionable since the vary reason for classification of these groups are do to genetic mutations. Would it be statistically probable for two men to share the same Y Haplogroup but not be linearly or even closely related?

Charmaine D. Royal, John Novembre, Stephanie M. Fullerton, David B. Goldstein, Jeffrey C. Long, Michael J. Bamshad, Andrew G. Clark, Inferring Genetic Ancestry: Opportunities, Challenges, and Implications, The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 86, Issue 5, 2010, Pages 661-673, ISSN 0002-9297, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2010.03.011. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929710001552)

Paull, J.M., Briskman, J., Steeble, S.K. and Twersky, Y.M., 2017. When Y-DNA and Yichus Tell Different Stories. Op cit, p.4.

I thought I felt my ears tingle. I haven't been on G2G for a couple of weeks and Harry's post drew me back here. wink

James, I see you certainly aren't new to WikiTree, but a fresh and enthusiastic "howdy!" to DNA conversations on the forum.

"Would it be statistically probable for two men to share the same Y Haplogroup but not be linearly or even closely related?"

Short answer: No. Longer answer with sufficient, sciency hedging: It depends.

First, just to get it out of the way--and especially with the nonrecombinant, haploidy Y chromosome--we can track levels of linear descent way back in time. For example, you and I converge at R-P312, but you branch from there to R-Z290 and I branch at R-Z46516 (the two largest subclades under P312). We know we have a shared common ancestor somewhere: the first guy to carry the P312 and CTS12684 polymorphisms. But that puts our ancestor somewhere around 4,800 years ago, give or take.

There are periodic debates about what's meaningful as "genealogical timeframe," and opinions differ. My own take is that the period is defined by the earliest availability of reliable documentation, and that is then--for the most part--dependent upon the time in which a given region adopted inherited surnames.

So you and I share some ancient roots in the British Isles, but we're effectively unrelated genealogically. At least, per the Y chromosome.

Second, it's become more and more tricky to make a definitive statement about a haplogroup designation without doing a little digging.

Back in February 2002, the Y Chromosome Consortium first proposed a nomenclature for "Y-Chromosomal Binary Haplogroups." This was broadly adopted and is the "long-form" naming still maintained by some entities like ISOGG. But...as of that 2002 paper there were a grand total of 243 known Y-SNPs. Not a typo: 243.

Coincidentally, I took my first yDNA-specific test in 2002. And, unsurprisingly, I went over three years before seeing any match.

Eight years later, in 2010, we had over 800 SNPs identified representing 440 branches on the yDNA haplotree. Progress! In 2014, FTDNA and the Genographic Project jointly released their new, combined yDNA haplotree: more than 1,200 branches and more than 6,200 SNPs.

You see where I'm goin' here. This morning, the FTDNA haplotree showed 58,705 defined branches. The explosion started with the first Big Y tests in 2013. With the current iteration Big Y-700, the sequencing looks at about 23.6 million base pairs of the chromosome's approximately 57.2 million (the areas not tested, other than the small pseudoautosomal regions, are densely heterochromatic and full of highly repetitive sequences from which, for now at least, we can't derive any meaning).

As new full-sequencing results come in, more SNPs are identified and more branches split in the haplotree. The older, long-form nomenclature--especially for the basal R haplogroup which accounts for 47% of all the haplotree branches--quickly became pretty much impossible to use. Even as old as our shared P312 is, the long-form name is the unwieldy R1b1a1b1a1a2. FTDNA, in its haplotree, shows me as being five levels deeper than the best resolution in the ISOGG tree.

It simply may no longer be relevant to try to maintain those massively long strings of letters and numerals. Popular now is to use just the deepest identified SNP ("terminal SNP" is, I think, a bit misleading as a term for it because that SNP could branch anew next month), or a hybrid, which I favor, that includes the first level or two from the basal in the older long-form, plus the currently identifying SNP. I usually write mine as being "R1b1-BY35083." That gives the reader a quick clue about where the SNP falls at the 500-foot view.

But there's no longer any single body of governance like the Y Chromosome Consortium to assure consistency in naming the branches...or even in defining the branches. That's where the extra research may come in.

Most of the data are coming in from the FTDNA Big Y test...but not all of it. Entities like YFull and the Y-DNA Warehouse will accept uploads from whole genome sequencing tests and provide a yDNA analysis. So the different haplotrees aren't in lockstep. It may take some digging to figure out if seemingly different information could actually be consistent.

For example, my BY35083 isn't cataloged by YFull, where I've had both my Big Y and WGS results evaluated. Next step higher in branching at FTDNA is BY35076, which also displays seven other associated (and possibly synonymous) SNPs: BY172357, BY35078, BY35081, BY35088, BY51515, FT134692, and FT182955. None of which get a hit at YFull.

At FTDNA, the branch above that is BY22194 plus associated SNPs BY151221 and FT362105. Bingo! A hit on BY22194, with an estimated formation at 1,700 years ago.

The takeaway is that all of the SNPs I mentioned above are valid for that nominally proximate branch on the current haplotree. And the next higher branch, BY22166, has a whopping 61 additional associated SNPs. So the newer naming convention provides brevity and precision, but unfortunately it can also hide a lot of information that needs to be checked before relatedness can be ruled out. Again, somewhat less of an issue for basal haplogroups other than R simply due to the volume. Still a research issue, though.

Thank you! And “howdy” to you as well. I agree completely. I think that having genetic connections isn’t enough for genealogical research, documentation along with it is the best approach.
Also being that those haplogroup polymorphisms occurred a long time ago, whatever potential relationship is there, would need documentation to establish. For example, two people can have the same haplogroup but not be genealogical related unless there is documentation that establishes it. Or am I wrong? My thoughts are, just because someone matches your haplogroup does not "prove" a genealogical relationship, it just shows common genetic ancestry that you share from a mutation that occurred over a certain length of time. Also the nomenclature of the haplogroups, because of the inconsistency, can complicate it as well.

James, a bunch of regular readers of G2G just cringed--maybe even gasped out loud--that you asked me about DNA and genealogical "proof." They're afraid I'll go off on a discourse of scientific theory that will ramble unintelligibly for 3,000 words. surprise

But I won't do that. I promise. Well...at least I won't do it too much.

I'm very much with you in bracketing with quotation marks any form of the word "prove" when it comes to the use of genetics in genealogy. I think one problem we have have is that the genealogical proof standard has been around a very long time, and the word "proof" is ingrained with the basic Merriam-Webster definition of: "the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or fact."

But in the sciences, it's only in areas like pure mathematics and theoretical physics where the term "proof" lives. In the physical and life sciences there's really no such thing as proving a hypothesis...you can only disprove one. That's why, after 106 years of rigorous examination, Einstein's general theory of relativity is still a theory, not a proof.

That nugget of painful tedium is the 30-second tour of something I feel is an intrinsic difficulty in genealogy today: genetics is a specialized field that requires an entirely different skillset for analysis and evidentiary evaluation than does anything else we've used since time immemorial for genealogy. In truth, there's very little we can "prove" or "confirm" by genetics alone given the popular testing technologies we currently use. Without a substantiating paper trail, I'd be willing to accept autosomal results between monozygotic twins, parent and child, and full siblings as standalone evidence...with the caveat that even siblings push the envelope a tiny bit, and that twins and parent/child relationships are indistinguishable at some testing services.

Ahem. Coughcough.

Let me just push this soapbox back under my desk...

All that said, there is a difference between evidence of a specific familial relationship and evidence of a genetic, genealogical connection. For example, two people take a microarray test at AncestryDNA and the results show them as sharing 850cM. We absolutely know they're related and we have a pretty good idea of where to look for that relationship: there are only a handful of possibilities that fall in line with that ~12.5% sharing. But we can't establish the relationship based on DNA alone.

Similarly, we're a lot closer now than we were a decade ago to being able to use yDNA to narrow the possible relationships...at least a bit. We used to have only the tested short tandem repeats to work with. My first FTDNA test was 12 markers, all they offered at that time. As we increased the number of STRs tested, we thought we were moving closer to something more akin to predictive results, e.g., we test 111 markers and show a genetic distance of 2, and the FTDNA TiP report gives us estimated probabilities for TMRCA.

However, the more data that was gathered the more we began to understand that STR matching even to 111 markers was never going to provide much assurance for any sort of predicted relationship. Only that there may be a relationship in the genealogical timeframe. As we gathered more data we learned more about the mercurial nature of STR mutations: that different STRs had average mutation rates the differed by many factors of magnitude; that the mutation rates seemed to be somewhat different among different haplogroups; that some STRs seemed more prone to back-mutations than others; that we began to see examples of "convergence," where STR haplotypes looked to be identical by descent when in fact they were identical by state...they just happened to carry the same numbers of STR repeats.

Getting to the point of being able to sequence most of the accessible area of the Y chromosome starting with the first Big Y test in 2013 was huge (and I should probably put "accessible" in quotation marks because, as of last year, hybrid sequencing technologies using tools from Pacific Bio and Oxford Nanopore have allowed us the ability to sequence that majority of the chromosome that's densely heterochromatic...but that testing isn't offered yet by any direct-to-consumer service and we wouldn't know, also yet, what to make of the data anyway). Then the next big leap was to get more and more men tested by this semi-full sequencing.

That's how the FTDNA yDNA haplotree has grown, in terms of number of defining branches, 23% in the last 12 months alone, almost 120% since March 2020. Although dependent upon the basal haplogroup involved, Y-SNP testing has moved us very much into the realm of genealogical timeframe relevance.

Here's a paper from last summer that might interest you: McDonald, Iain. "Improved Models of Coalescence Ages of Y-DNA Haplogroups." Genes 12:6, 862 (June 2021): https://doi.org/10.3390/genes12060862. I've followed Iain's work for years and in fact used his haplogroup R STR mutation rate data as the baseline for what I began compiling for my group projects at FTDNA.

Unfortunately, what a lot of people zoned in on was a statement in "Materials and Methods" that provided a simple mutation rate of 83 years per SNP. That, of course, is a vast over generalization. He arrived at a broad average Y-SNP mutation rate μ of 8×10−10 per base pair per year, then used a variable b to indicate the number of SNPs callable in a given sequencing, arriving at 1/SNP ≈ 83 years per SNP. But a few words later he shows a more refined equation for estimation of TMRCA. Iain then goes on to address dealing with various uncertainties...and it should be noted that the qualifier for his baseline data was "sufficiently widely tested haplogroups." Where basal haplogroup R represents 27,792 branches in the haplotree, some haplogroups have far fewer branches and, per force, individual SNP mutations must represent greater spans of time. The common Haplogroup G, for instance, contains only 1,713 branches in total; prevalent Northern European haplogroup I, 8,787 branches.

A result is that you'll see many who have latched onto a blanket average Y-SNP mutation rate of 83 years. That's incorrect, of course, but it does show that, in many instances (and particularly in haplogroup R) we have enough experimental data to indicate that deeply tested Y-SNPs are evidence of fairly recent descendancy.

A recent addition to the FTDNA website is something you might want to explore: https://discover.familytreedna.com/. You enter a haplogroup as defined by its SNP (per the FTDNA haplotree, of course), and the result provides some interesting analysis. My impression before the tool appeared was that it would use Iain's methodology for TMRCA calculation, but there's no attribution on the site so I could be mistaken about that; I haven't asked Iain.

You can use my haplogroup to see the report for a SNP deep in R: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY35083/story. Clicking on "Scientific Details" in the left-hand column provides a better look at TMRCA estimations.

Six of us in the FTDNA database are positive for BY35083, and we all are part of a running BY22166 subproject. At a 68% confidence interval, FTDNA indicates a calendar date range of 1673 to 1795 for BY35083. Three of the six test-takers, including me, can genealogically trace the common ancestor to an unknown father of four sons who were born from 1790 through 1802...so call the father's birth circa 1770ish. The other three are speculated to share a common ancestor with us no more than two generations prior, possibly just one...so call the likely spread as 1700 through 1770. That 68% CI covers the spread nicely. I can't speculate how accurately the algorithm performs in other instances, but I as yet have no reason to believe it to be grossly inaccurate.

Exactly! I have checked out the new discovery feature at FTDNA. R-S675 goes back between 1836-1578 years ago with a 68% confidence interval. Will definitely take a look at the article. The larger the sample size the more accurate the results become at predicting and the more tighter clusters the groups are. Thank you sir!
I have done the Family Tree DNA B726533 is my test number. My comparison to 965179 confirms the Y dna back to Christopher Comer. I don't know much about this. There is a Comer group in the Family Tree site where you may see the entire listing. I was ask to participate in this and I did.  My match to MK60198 proves Y dna back to Augustine Comer. As I understand it this is only looking at the 23rd chromosome, but I'm pretty much a "Shultz" here, i know nothing. If you email me I will cooperate with you in any way I can to forward your research.
@Edison: I'm not cringing. Keep writing. I'm learning a ton.
@Eric: I agree. I don't get to have these conversations much anymore.
@Comer: I will be in touch. Thank you!

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