Bridge between Poland Project and Germany Project (Prussia)

+20 votes
622 views

Hello there!  Now that the categorization structure is in place for the Poland Project, I'd like to discuss how we can create a communicate bridge with the Germany Project, specifically historical Prussia.

One possible solution is that we create two categories, linked between the two projects: (language example)

[[Category: Prussia to Poland]], in this case the Prussian village category would be added to [[Category: Prussia to Poland]] if a village needs to be created on the Poland end.  This alerts the Poland Project that a category can be made on their behalf to link the two together.

[[Category: Poland to Prussia]], same thing but other way around.

I don't want Prussian village categories added to [[Category: Poland]], just as Germany project wouldn't want Polish village categories added to Prussia.

No such bridge is needed with Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria, as the majority of villages in that region have already been categorized and simple instructions can be added.  I will work on that within the next couple days.

What do you think?  Is there already some kind of category structure that exists where this could branch?  If not, what sort of wording would you use?

Thanks!!

Skye

Poland Project Coordinator

Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria Project Coordinator

in Policy and Style by Skye Sonczalla G2G6 Mach 9 (97.8k points)
retagged by Skye Sonczalla

4 Answers

+8 votes
Hi Skye,

There are only a small number of categories for villages that used to be part of Prussia and now located in Poland. I collate Wikitree profiles at the Kreis/County level, not the village level. A large number of Prussian Kreis have been categorised.

For the small number of Prussian villages and towns that have categories, I had thought that simple explanations with cross-linked categories was sufficient. For example:. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Meseritz%2C_Meseritz%2C_Posen%2C_Preu%C3%9Fen

Am I missing a problem?
by Steve Thomas G2G6 Pilot (117k points)

Ok that makes sense.  I had no idea what the categorization structure was under Prussia.  I've hyperlinked the Prussia Category to the appropriate voivodeships, such as: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Greater_Poland_Voivodeship%2C_Poland

Thanks!

Hi Skye, I agree with Steve. It's not necessary to set up Prussia-Poland and Prussia-Germany categories as categorizing under Prussia should be sufficient. Also, Poland Project members are welcome to join Germany's Prussia subproject. Perhaps both projects could manage that team? Kylie Haese and Steve Thomas are the main points of contact for the Prussia team. I suggest working with them directly.
+8 votes
What Poland Voviodships are/were historically in Prussia? I would be interested in setting up by Polish villages, rather than by county if I understand it correctly.
by Maggie N. G2G Astronaut (1.3m points)

Some of the Polish villages have already been set up (as needed.)  It's how can we link the Polish village to the historical Prussian name under the Germany Project.  Right now all it seems we are allowed to do is hyperlink on our Polish page, whereas it would be nice to add the Prussian village (if there is one) as a subcategory to the present-day Poland village OR see if it is possible to create a parallel category in german ... with the Prussian village information (and tying it to the Prussian county, etc.)  I don't know if that is possible.  Essentially adding a parallel category to connect a historical village to the present day.  The Wikitree profiles don't need to be separated if they are from the same place.  Does that make sense?

pre-1918 map:

nice map
@Maggie. In my view the most important category hierarchy is based on modern Polish villages and voivodeships. I am not interested in creating a lot categories for Prussian villages. For different reasons I prefer to focus on the Prussian kreis/county level.

Here is a good example of what I mean:

Is it possible to add: [[Category: Krotoschin (Kreis), Posen]]

as a parallel language (in German) to [[Category: Krotoszyn County, Greater Poland Voivodeship]]?

I need to do research on if the district lines have changed much for Posen vs. Present Day Poland on the county level.  If that is a rarity, then it would be nice to see the same profiles in Posen also in the Poland category.

So drop down to those who prefer to have this same circumstance on a village level with parallel category.  Steve, we are not asking you (yourself) to create a bunch of villages.  We are asking is it possible the Poland Project can do it when we set up present day categories (on an as needed basis).  If so, the only work that really needs to be done is some kind of categorization approval for Prussia which allows that parallel category bridge.

The purpose is to allow Wikitree users who are advanced in their Prussian location knowledge use the Prussia category, while those not so advanced and use the Present day category and ALL PROFILES be together in one place.  This increases visibility for the Prussia category aka Germany Project, while also indirectly educating non-advanced members on geographical name changes.

Hi Skye,
I do not expect many examples of parallel language categories for Prussian village names. One example is: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Meseritz%2C_Meseritz%2C_Posen%2C_Preußen. I will look at repeating this for Krotoschin.
The Meseritz category is nested under the modern powiat in 3 languages.
Yes exactly Steve!  I'd like Maggie to chime in her thoughts.

I am still experimenting.

[[Category:Krotoschin, Krotoschin, Posen, Preußen]] is now a German language parallel category for the town of Krotoszyn. 
 

1) it carries all the profiles collected into one town category, whichever language.
 

2) I am not sure that the geographic boundaries are the same for [[Category: Krotoschin (Kreis), Posen]] and [[Category: Krotoszyn County, Greater Poland Voivodeship]]. I do not see them as genuine parallel categories.
 

3) I have named Germany as the project for Krotoschin. If there is any question about the historic political structure or spelling of locations, I think the Germany project is in a better position to answer them.
 

4) In the Prussian province of Posen, the Polish village names often appear on Prussian maps. Dzielice, 10 km north of Krotoszyn, is one example.    

I agree, I wouldn't advocate for parallel at the county level ... only at the village level (like I mentioned, I'm not familiar if Prussian counties/bezirks changed after WWII when it became part of Poland (and then who knows if it changed 2 to 3 times like all the others did between WWII and present day.)
+4 votes

Hi Skye,


One big bridge between the "Poland Project and Germany Project (Prussia)" would be hard to maintain in the future.
 

I imagine a lot of little bridges at the village level. For example [[Category:Krotoschin, Krotoschin, Posen, Preußen]].
 

The Polish language category stream links up to modern Poland. The German stream links up to the historic kingdom of Prussia.
 

Does this example answer your question?

Steve.
 

by Steve Thomas G2G6 Pilot (117k points)
edited by Steve Thomas
+7 votes

Hi Steve!  I'm just touching base again about your progress in experimenting with the parallel category.  I agree that only linking on a village level should be done (not the county level as they may have changed.)

Did you see any issues with creating a parallel village? If not, would you be able to write up an approval process?  Because the Poland side already has a "pl" and "en" set up, the Polish "en" parallel would be used for the Prussian "de".

We're aware you don't want to spend a lot of time on the creation of Prussian villages.  The eagerness to do so stems from folks in the Poland Project, so they would mainly be the ones creating the parallel (as needed.)  Let me know and thank you!

"I am still experimenting. [[Category:Krotoschin, Krotoschin, Posen, Preußen]] is now a German language parallel category for the town of Krotoszyn.   

1) it carries all the profiles collected into one town category, whichever language.

 2) I am not sure that the geographic boundaries are the same for [[Category: Krotoschin (Kreis), Posen]] and [[Category: Krotoszyn County, Greater Poland Voivodeship]]. I do not see them as genuine parallel categories.  

3) I have named Germany as the project for Krotoschin. If there is any question about the historic political structure or spelling of locations, I think the Germany project is in a better position to answer them.

 4) In the Prussian province of Posen, the Polish village names often appear on Prussian maps. Dzielice, 10 km north of Krotoszyn, is one example."

If you notice in [[Category: Krotoschin, Krotoschin, Posen, Preußen]]  I removed the Polish county as a parent.  This is not needed.  Your Prussian village only needs the parent to the Kreis/Bezirk, Prussian county (otherwise I end up with the Prussian village name under the Polish side).  The link is strictly through the parallel on the village level. 

by Skye Sonczalla G2G6 Mach 9 (97.8k points)
Thanks for the comment Skye.
I did struggle a bit with the creation of the parallel category. I introduced the Polish county as a parent to make sure the different language categories for Krotoschin had a common parent category. The system still works with the Polish county removed, so I still not understand the problem.
I will look for another Prussian village to experiment with.

I have a few Prussian villages that I would like categories for. I would like to use them to categorise existing profiles, and to add more profiles in the future. A link to current Polish villages might make it easier to view distance between places on Google Maps.

Where should I ask for these categories for the Prussian villages to be created?

Hi Steve!  This looks great and very easy for the folks in the Poland Project to set up.   

I know the categorization team will want something written as a process, so that the knowledge on how to do this is shared with the community (and not monopolized to a few individuals.)  That is something I can work on today (and add you or the Germany Project to the page.)  ???  Let me know your thoughts!
Hi Sven!  I peeped at your pedigree and these places are Germany side of Prussia (not Polish).  Sending you a link to the Prussia category.
Skye, I agree with formalising the process of creating categories.

The foundation category to set in place will be the modern Polish name for a village in Poland. If you are drafting a procedure then the first step to me is creating the categories in Polish and English. (If the Prussian name is known and not the Polish, the simplest precursor is to ask for the current name on G2G).

Can you message me with a list of Polish villages you would like Prussian categories for?

[Later addition. Some of these locations will be interesting. I have just looked for "Wilmsdorf, Kreis Neidenburg, Ostpreußen, Preußen". I can see that the Polish village is Wilamowo, but there are a number of villages with the same name fairly close to each other]
Hi Sven! You are writing in the best place to request categories for Prussian villages. Skye is a project coordinator for the Poland project. I am the leader of the Prussia team in the Germany project. A formal category request process has not yet been established.
@Steve, How about I start a free-space page on the procedure of creating a village category in Prussia?  (I've created several such pages).  I'll add you, Kylie, Maggie and anyone else you would want to be there from the Germany Project.  It is there we can also discuss adding the parallel language.  We can work on it together and when it appears ready, give the green light to add it to the G2G for discussion, vote, etc.

This way, you won't feel the weight of categorization on your shoulders.  Anyone who can read through the formal process can set up a category.

I do realize that categorization for "Prussia" includes non-Poland areas as well.  So if you have a procedure for the same (parallel to Germany), you can also discuss this there.

The categorization page will be Germany Project controlled.  If you like, you can add me to the Germany Project (though I will not be very active, only as a liaison for the Poland Project) as I do have a set of German ancestors from Pommern and will at some time become more active in researching them.

Feel free to reply here or send me a message. :)
Awesome, thank you, both. Give me a while, please, to collate some of the villages I need. Some, I already know, but others might yet to be discovered. I also understand that this is a sensitive topic, so I am extra-double-appreciative of your work.

Sven

@Skye, I'll send you some ideas about a procedure for this task.

In my mind this procedure is most important in the parts of Prussia that are not part of modern Germany. Inside Germany, the best village category to use is one that is nested under the modern political structure. 
 

 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Preu%C3%9Fen is nested under "Former Countries of Europe". It is most useful where the country boundaries and official languages have changed.
 

@Steve, check your messages as I sent you an email through Wikitree (maybe went to your spam folder.). I started a category structure page and need your email address to add you to it (and you can add anyone else who needs to be on it as well.). Thanks!
Following
Hello,

I have a few category requests for the former East Prussia, Kreis Neidenburg which is now in Poland. Over time, I should be able to add a couple of profiles into each of these.

1. Klein Koslau (see the parish http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/object_164233 and the village http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/KLESELKO03DH )

2. Groß Koslau (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/GROSELKO03DH )

3. Lissaken (later called Talhöfen, in 1938)  (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/TALFENKO03DI )

4. Groß Schläfken (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/SCHKENKO03DH )

5. Klein Schläfken (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/SCHKE2KO03DH )

6. Michalken (see http://gov.genealogy.net/MICSAUKO03DK )

7. Muschaken (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/MUSKENKO03HI )

8. Skottau (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/SKOTAUKO03DJ )

9. Wilmsdorf (see http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/WILORFKO03CH )

Thank you for your help and support!

Sven
@Sven, created all of them. Look in your updates for links.

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