Question

As political geography changes, how do we categorize?  This is a recurring theme, and to me it looks like we have been dealing with it on a case by case basis.  Is there a set answer, or is the answer "it all depends"?

Example: How should Darmstadt, Germany, be categorized?  Darmstadt is a city inside the state of Hesse, located in the southern part of the Rhine-Main-Area.  It was part of Hesse-Darmstadt when Hesse-Darmstadt existed. But is existed before and afterwards.

Background: In 1567, Hesse was divided by a kind father, Philip I, among his four sons, thus creating: Hesse-Kassel (became the Electorate of Hesse in 1803/4), Hesse-Marburg (disappeared in 1604), Hesse-Rheinfels (disappeared, was recreated and died out in 1834), and Hesse-Darmstadt (dissolved in 1806).

Each jurisdiction could be a sub-category under Hesse. The categorization could be: German: "Hessen-Darmstadt, Hessen" > "Hessen, Deutschland"; and English: "Hesse-Darmstadt, Hesse" > "Hesse, Germany".  And the city of Darmstadt could be categorized both under "Hesse, Germany" and under the sub-category "Hesse-Darmstadt, Hesse."

The gist of my question is general, about the correct categorization and sub-categorization of no longer existing places or places which have changed over the years, so It also applies to place like Alsace or the Duchy of Schleswig.  When political geography changes, what is the best way to handle former or following jurisdictions?

Comments

Hi Vic,

I've been trying to clean-up and consolidate the help pages on categorization and the Category Names style guide. This is the kind of thing we need to have clearly explained on the Category Names guide.

My very rough draft of the general rule that would apply, I think:

A fundamental style rule on WikiTree is to "use their conventions instead of ours," i.e. we should attempt to use the name that the person themselves would have known and used. For regional categorization, for example, this means using the place name in the language and time in which the person lived rather than what it's called now in English.

This applies for bottom-level categories that contain profiles, not higher-level categories. The higher-level categories exist for our own organizational and navigational purposes, e.g. the county name X [???] contains towns that no longer exist or have been renamed.

 

If this rule is improved or refined through this conversation (or if I'm already wrong about it) let's make sure the page is updated.

 

Thanks!

 

Chris

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So, for the city of Darmstadt, it would always be Darmstadt, but it would be a sub-category of several different jurisdictions, depending on the period.  Is that correct?

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Chris and Vic, it gets very complex very quickly.

One solution I had floated previously was to use GPS coordinates, since those don't ever change. But my main question is whether or not that is possible?

For instance, on Find-a-Grave, they have GPS coordinates down to each particular headstone in many cases. But there are also GPS coordinates for every cemetery. So that is a good starting place for us.

But, here is the rub: Are the cemetery GPS coordinates that are listed there simply for a random central two-foot area within the cemetery, or are they capable of designating a hundred yard radius, or a five mile radius, or a 20 mile radius?

Which would then be very useful to more definitively designate where we find such former or current entities such as neighborhoods, villages, towns, cities, counites, and regions, regardless of what political hierarchy they belong to today or at various times in the past?

Does anybody know if GPS works this way?

Answer 1

I like the way the timeline is presented in Category: History of Massachusetts and then on each of the categories for the different names it was known by it says:

Preceded by ... date from - date to.

Succeeded by ...,date from - date to.

eg, Category: Massachusetts Bay Colony.

Comments

Thank you, Maryann, for highlighting the presentation used within Category: History of Massachusetts.  And a thank you to the category's creator(s).

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This is similar to what Helmut Jungschaffer was proposing a while ago, he just did a more visual display on the right site.

But a great effort of work, I wonder if we ever get to that level for most historic German places.

Answer 2

Hello Vic, My practice been to list places in a two part format. The first half is the place name as it was known at the time of the event followed by (present day name of location as it is on day of profile creation or uupdate). Having said that, I must confess that my first GED com upload did NOT follow this convention so I have much busy-work ahead to occupy me.

Comments

Thanks Michele, I sometimes do the same thing on the place names in profiles. Here, my question was specifically aimed at categorization.

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Some genealogical software programs are sophisticated enough to tell you when a particular county did not exist on the date of the event entered.  To me it makes the most sense to enter the location according to the time when the event occurred.  Even today - though less often - place names are changing and many years from now current locations may not be remembered.