Should Geesie Veeder be merged?

+7 votes
169 views

Should [[Veeder-12|Geesie Veeder]] and [[Veeder-32|Grietje "Geese" Veeder]] be merged?  Also [[Vrooman-131|Jan Johannes Vrooman]] be merged with [[Vrooman-44|Johannes H. Vrooman]] (birth, death dates, spouse all match.  

Research from The Vrooman family in America : descendants of Hendrick ... .Wickersham, Grace Elizabeth Vrooman and other sources confirm this Johannes was the son of Hendrick Meese Vrooman, who came to New Netherlands in 1664 from Holland
 

WikiTree profile: Geesie Veeder
asked in Genealogy Help by Vicki Norman G2G6 Mach 2 (20.2k points)
retagged by Keith Hathaway

Are Grietje and Geesje/Geesie the same person? I have the impression that Grietje is a diminutive form of Margaret, while Geesje is a different name, possibly a diminutive of Gertude. probably a diminutive form of Gerritse.

I have not looked deeply into the history of this family. However, I know that "Geesje" or "Geesie" was listed in Simon Veeder's will as a surviving daughter. Elsewhere, "Grietje" is listed as one of his children. Is there a baptism record for Grietje? Are there marriage records? (I wonder if these are two different daughters.)

Er, records for Albany start in 1683 and Schenectady starts in 1694. If there's not a family bible record then the dates for both profiles are estimates.

3 Answers

+5 votes

Hi Vickl,

I noticed that Grietje is in the New Netherlands Project.  That project has its own merging approval system ... for just this reason ... the terrific differences in spelling and the many, many duplicates.

You might want to see  (and possibly join yourself?) the project  http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:New_Netherland_Settlers

Michelle Hartley is the current project manager.  You also might want to contact her.  http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gerard-337

You did the correct thing asking here (amazing how this G2G seems to work) and hope this helps.  Thank you for caring!

answered by Cynthia B G2G6 Pilot (124k points)

For what it's worth, I imagine that this discussion was motivated by the NNS Merge Notice template ("Do Not Merge") that I added to http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Veeder-12. I also started a G2G discussion of the Veeder and Vedder names, where I was hoping for broad discussion of these families.

Husband is the same man, and it looks like the daughter Catrina is probably the same as well, but I did not check the descendant trees to compare and confirm. So it looks to me that the profile creation in each case intended them to be the same woman.

It is always possible that two sisters were conflated. But there is no mixture of spouses and children here that I can detect. So I would say to treat her as the same woman, and figure out the name later.

That said, however, she cannot be merged, because the NNS PPP has a higher number with exact same spelling. So the system simply will not allow it, no way no how.

If the Merge Notice template stays on the lower number Veeder match, I will soon get a PPP put on to it. So that it can become the NNS.

But, if you want to sort out the Veeder / Vedder choice on this one first now, then we can change it to Vedder, before giving it the PPP.

There is no hurry, because there is no possibilty that it will be merged away as it is now.
@Steven: Please don't suggest that her LNAB should be changed to Vedder. This woman is a daughter of Simon. That's the family that appears to have consistently used the name Veeder. It appears to me that all of her siblings have profiles with the wrong spelling of the LNAB (although a couple of them also have Veeder profiles), but her LNAB is correct.

Anyway, it would be best to use the other G2G discussion for discussion of the LNAB, and keep this one focused on this one person.

It seems that MANY of the Banckers married to the Veeders or Vedders, which brings me to another question.  Are these the same family, but just using different spellings of the name to differentiate branches?

For example, I have these two daughters of Annatje VEEDER ... but they marry Vedder:

1737 Dec 21; Willem Bancker, Annatje Veeder; Neeltie, m. Albert A. Vedder;
1740 Aug 16; Willem Bancker, Annatje Veeder; Annatie, m. Arent S. Vedder
@Janne: It appears that Vedder and Veeder are two distinct families in New Netherland -- and yes, sometimes a Vedder married a Veeder. The immigrant ancestor of the Vedders was Harman Albertse. The immigrant ancestor of the Veeders was Simon Volkertsze. It is possible that they were related (first cousins?), but their origins in the Netherlands are not known.

Please see the discussion at http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/150863/choosing-between-veeder-and-vedder-in-new-netherland
+3 votes
Now that I've spent time researching this family, I agree that Geesje/Geesie Veeder and Grietje Veeder are the same person.

I think her name was Geesje (alt. spelling Geesie). The only sources I've seen for "Grietje" are personal genealogies (e.g., Ancestry Family Trees). I guess that the people who created those pages mistakenly thought Geesje and Grietje were variants of the same name, so they inserted "Grietje" in their records when the source said "Geesje.". Based on my own limited experience, that's an easy kind of mistake to make
answered by Ellen Smith G2G6 Pilot (892k points)
edited by Ellen Smith
+3 votes

This question appeared on my Wiki Feeds TODAY.  Wishing I had seen it yesterday, before I created a duplicate of the daughter.  

I am working BANCKER ancestry and Jacob Mebie Born March 1, 1698 in Schenectady, is the father of Annatie (Mabie) Bancker.  

I have Catrina Vrooman as the daughter of Jan Hendrickse Vrooman and Geesie Veeder, Born about May 1701.  When I created her as a wife for Jacob Mebie, no potential candidates were offered to me on the edit page.

There IS a baptismal record for Catrina: 

"1701 May 12; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Catarina (b), m. Jacob Mebie;"  

http://www.ancestralcurios.com/schenectady_baptisms.htm

And, I am now realizing that JAN and JOHANNES may be two names for the same person (signifying JOHN?)

answered by Janne Gorman G2G6 Mach 2 (21.8k points)
edited by Janne Gorman
I like to take into consideration the whole family, 
when possible. So, here are the baptisms of 
ALL of their children born in Schenectady, 
Albany County, New York:

1681 Feb 25; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Simon
1682 Jul 23; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Jannetie (b), m. Arent Bratt
1684 Mar 26; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Hendrick
1686 ??? ??; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Jacob (b), 
murdered in his father's house 1688;
1688 Oct ??; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Pieter (b), 
killed at the Beukendaal massacre 1748
1690 Sep 12; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Hendrick
1692 Dec 22; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Engeltje (b), m. Jan R. Schermerhorn
1694 Oct 24; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Johannes
1696 Oct 31; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Maria (b), m. Gysbert Van Brakel
1698 Dec 28; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Jacob 
170? ??? ??; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Helena, m. Joseph Van Sice;
1701 May 12; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Catarina (b), m. Jacob Mebie

1703 Jan 10; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Bartholomeus

1704 Jul 06; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Magdalena

1705 Dec 29; Jan Vrooman, Geesje Veeder; Cornelis

 

The pre-existing profile for Catarina Vrooman born 1701 is Vrooman-220 (Catharina Janse Vrooman). It was an orphan profile that I adopted on Tuesday. It shows Grietje Veeder as the mother. I added an unmerged match of Vrooman-220 to Janne's newly created profile.

Vrooman-298 (Catrina Vrooman, born 1742) is currently attached to Geesie Veeder's profile as Geesie's daughter, but it's impossible for a woman born in about 1660 to have had a child in 1742. She must be a member of a later generation of the Vrooman family.

When working with these New Netherland families, I've found that the search function in the new-profile screen seldom detects the profiles that already exist. This is due to the diversity of spellings for both family names and given names, confusion related to patronymics, different ways that the two-word names have been handled, and the lack of firm information on people's life dates. The new-profile search utility only finds people with an exact spelling match in both a first name field and one of the last name fields and a close match on the date(s).

I find a lot of duplicates (and often get diverted into unrelated families, such as this one) by various search strategies: (1) opening the surname page for the family name and sorting once by birthdate and a second time by first name, then skimming the relevant sections of both lists; (2) searching for the name using the wildcard * (for example, a search for Cat* Vro* would find Catarina Vrooman, Catrina Vrooman, Catharina Janse Vrooman, Catalyntje Vrooman, Catharine Vromman, and other variants); (3) repeating these steps for the person's patronymic; and (4) repeating these steps for known spelling variations. But no matter how hard I look, I don't always find the existing profile.

I do try various searches, but I was unaware of the way that you use the wildcard to search.  WHERE do you type "Cat*Vro*      (not into the last name field of the WikiTree search though)

In the search boxes at the top of most screens, or in http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Special:SearchPerson, put Cat* in the First Name box and Vro* in the Last Name box. 

Thanks!  I get it.  You are using Cat* as the wild card for Catrina, in this case.  I thought it stood for Category, or some such thing.  LOL

I will use this "trick" in the future.  Thanks, again.

re: And, I am now realizing that JAN and JOHANNES may be two names for the same person (signifying JOHN?)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Dutch_diminutives_of_given_names

blush

 

Exactly, Carrie.  Although I HAVE seen Johannes and Jan in the same family, too.
Also, in New Netherland most profiels already exist, in one form or another, and are connected to various tree branches.

So before creating duplicates by relying on the hit or miss search, I always advise to simply browse the likely ancetors in the NNS category instead. You can then look at the descendant tree of the oldest ancestor, to see if any likely descendants are a match.

If that fails, then try search with the wildcard, to make sure that there are not any loose floaters that need to be connected in.

@Janne: If you've seen Johannes and Jan in the same set of siblings, I would bet that it's a case of the same name being recorded in different ways by different people. wink

Sometimes that happened in the contemporary records, and it also has happened in later years when people who transcribed or copied the information substituted their own interpretations of the names (either deliberately or inadvertently). If you have seen these names in different generations of the same family, it also could be a result of acculturation (for example, if a Dutch man named Jan married a Palatine German woman, their son might end up being called Johannes in some records).

I think German families do this though. This isn't the best example but it's a fairly well documented family that isn't complete on Wikitree http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/e/n/Micahel-D-Benyehudah-CO/GENE3-0002.html

Johan Georg, Johan Philip, Johan Christoph.

Next generation

http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/e/n/Micahel-D-Benyehudah-CO/GENE3-0003.html#CHILD6

Johan Ulrich, Johan Phillip, Johan Christopher

In short, throw Johan in front of it.

And if different people kept the records, you might possibly find church records showing one son baptized as Johan Georg and the next son baptized as Jan Christoffel.
It's true. I've even seen "John Stoffel".

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