A question about John Hay and where he came from.

+5 votes
3.1k views
Hello everyone! I am back again about my Hay family. I have stopped with Simon Hay, supposedly the son of John Hay. John Hay is the sticking point of finding out if they are part of the Hay family was from Scotland or Germany, or if they were in Germany longer than the information I had received earlier. I have found that my John Hay was not the son of Gilbert Hay because he had no children. If that were true John would have been 12th Earl of Erroll and would have been married to Jean Drummond. My John Hay was neither an Earl or married to Jean Drummond. The real 12th Earl of Erroll was a relative of Gilbert Hay by the name of, John Hay, and was married to Jean Drummond. I cannot even justify what his date of birth or date of death are because the facts don't fit the data given. His death is recorded as 1704 and he was buried in a Church in London. Well, I don't think this is true either. I looked at the Church Registery and if my eyes saw it correctly, the John Hay buried there was not my John Hay. It reads in part, "...John Hay, a child..."  (I have bad eyes so it is possable I saw it wrong, but I did use a magnifing glass.' That is definitely not my John Hay. So that date if not correct. So now I don't even believe the date of birth. So this must be the missing link.

Now, I did find another article called, "Hay Family:From Scotland, to Germany, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio and Illinois" It chronicles my whole family through the mid 1600's to the mid 1800's, from John Hay to my 4th Great Grandmother, Catherine Hay, who married my 4th Grandfather, Thomas Selby. The rest of this line is a follows: They had a son, Luke Selby who married Mary Kissinger who had a daughter named Catherine Selby. Catherine Selby married Christopher Brandt. They had a son, Jason Brandt who married Hallie Brandt. Their daughter, Dorothy Kathryn Brandt married Cleon Humrichouser, my grandparents. This leads to my Father, Jack Humrichouser and me...Marilyn Humrichouser Albert. (Just a little family history if you would be interested)

So this family is very interesting. The men served America very well, whether it was in owning land, serving public offices, fighting in the Revolution (My grandfather was friends with George Washington and worked for him during the war by supplying the Army with wheat.) and helping to establishing property and goverments for this country. The only lead this paper did say was that, maybe John Hay's father was the son of a Scottish warrior, which may be the reason he left Scotland. I would have attached this Hay Family document, but when I went to print it, it was 25 pages long. If the three people running the Scottish Clan Project wants it I will be happy to look for it. I do believe it is from the Family genealogy attached to Ancestery.com.

Thank you so much for taking time to read this. I know it is massive, but I am really anxious to get this straightened out.
in Genealogy Help by Marilyn Albert G2G3 (3.8k points)
Wow, look at all of you. I think we are really getting closer to this getting cleared up. As far was getting a direct ancestor, I am not sure is my brothers would be close enough. And my father's family is all gone except his two younger sisters, so that doesn't help. Adam Hay is my 5th great grandfather. If my brothers could be of any help I will ask them. Just let me know. It is getting exciting now. Merry Christmas to all of you.
Hi all,

My Hay cousin's Y results are in! We got 1 exact match on 37 markers, with another Hay who can only trace back his origins to another Hay in Somerset PA, which doesn't shed much new light on our Hay origins but could be useful to confirm the line going back several generations. The perhaps more illuminating piece of information is that we do not match any of the Hay project participants who have known Scottish origins. We do also share 12 markers with another tester (not in the Hay surname project) whose last name is HOEH. This person only tested 12 markers so it's hard to know how much to make of that information.

Here's the link to the Hay surname project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/hay/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

My Hay cousin's kit is 449895. The results for the most recent 30 or so people who have joined the project have not yet been categorized, which makes it kind of hard to trace who matches who. I am trying to contact the Hay project administrator to see if that can happen but have not heard back yet.

Cheers,

Heather
Are you able to tell if the Hoeh common ancestor is further back than Simon Hay's grandfather, Johann Simon Hoeh b. 1682 in Hoheinod?
Hello!

My family has an old Hay Family Bible that dates back into the late 1600's. I will check the pages to see what entries are there and try to upload a photo of the pages if anyone is interested in having that info.

My Ancestry.com search has records showing that the father of Johann Simon Hoh (1682-1752) was also named Johann Hoh. Also born and died in Hoheinod, Bayern Getmany.

The father of this Johann Hoh is listed as Gilbert Hay, 11th Earl of Errol. Family 'folklore' says that Gilbert was in a terrible marriage and had lots of political and religious enemies so he had to flee to Germany. But the 'official' story is that Gilbert died without issue at Slain's castle and the title and fortune was passed to a relative...

My father would like to participate in the Y-DNA testing that is mentioned on this thread...can anyone tell me how can we participate in this?

Thank you all!

Happy New Year!

NPU

Hi all! I only have a minute but I wanted to respond to NPU's question about the DNA testing right away. If your dad wants to join the Hay surname project, which would be terrific, the way to do it is to order one of the Y tests from FamilyTreeDNA. I wanted to write immediately because they are having their annual holiday sales right now which end today! I also have another $10 coupon code that I believe is transferable that you can use for one of the Y37, Y67, or Y111 tests. My coupon code is: R14HR52DYZHS

Essentially, the more markers you test, the more expensive the test is, but you can always start small and upgrade later since FamilyTreeDNA keeps the DNA on hand. Here's the link to the FamilyTreeDNA site: https://www.familytreedna.com/

More later...

Heather

Thank you, Heather! I ordered the kit. I'll let you all know the results.

NPU
Hi Joy,

I corresponded with my HOEH match today and he tells me that his HOEH grandparents were born in Hungary. Since he only tested 12 markers, it's hard to tell how far back our common match would be. From the statistics FTDNA provides, if a person matches on 12 markers, the chance of having a common ancestor within 7 generations is 50%, and within 23 generations it goes up to 90%, but that's a lot of generations in there!

Heather

Dear NPU,

I would like to have access to the pages of your Hay family Bible if they pertain. Thank you for your generous offer.  My family were in Baltimore Town, Maryland, in Baltimore county around the 1790's.  I am looking for the father of Jacob Hay born abt. 1769 and died in Green Township, Hamilton County, OH abt. 1821.  Jacob was married July 12, 1794 to Elizabeth Shalley or Shally or Sholly born abt. 1775.  Their children are Charles born 1794, William born 1797, George born abt 1799 (my 4x great grandfather) and Washington born 1803.  I found many of these church records at the Gay Street and Court House Plaza Zion German Luthebal, Baltimore, Md. on Familysearch.org.  The family move to Green Township now Cincinnati, OH in the early 1800's.

Please let me know how I may access your Bible records. Thank you for your contribution.

DeAnna

 

Hi DeAnna,

I too am looking for information regarding Jacob Hay of Baltimore, Maryland.

Have you had any luck with the Hay family bible page copies you requested from NPU?
Very interesting, Marilyn!  I am also from the Hay family - the Scottish immigrants who arrived here in Canada in 1812, to settle in Glengarry County, Ontario, Canada.  We have many in our tree named John, Gilbert, James, and William.  My grandfather, William Gilbert Hay embarked on the family history journey, from the time of immigration, in the 1940s.  After his death, it was another 30+ years before my father and I completed what he had begun.  We enlisted the assistance of the Mormons in Salt Lake City, our national Library and Archives Canada (LAC), and many other sources, and produced a volume called “The Hay Crop”, which now resides with others in LAC.  On New Year’s Eve I began my own DNA journey, which helped me make the connection to my maternal grandfather and, consequently, at least two Mayflower passengers.  However, the fact that you mention the names John, James, and Gilbert does lead me to believe we may be connected, so I’ll check my cousin listings to see if you’re there.  In the meantime, happy hunting!

Heather Jane Hay

Ottawa, Canada

1 Answer

+3 votes

I was looking for men named John Hay who were born between 1640 and 1660, that is in the mid-1600's. Here are several. Any thoughts on whether 1640-1660 is a good time range and would John Hay have moved to Germany? 

John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 19 March 1654 , KILSYTH, STIRLING, SCOTLAND
residence: Kilsyth, Stirlingshire, Scotland
father: Mathow Hay
 
John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 28 August 1659 CANONGATE, EDINBURGH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
residence: Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
father: James Hay
mother: Margaret Simsone
 
John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 15 January 1656 CANONGATE, EDINBURGH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
residence: Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
father: George Hay
mother: Margaret Patersone
 
John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
birth: 15 July 1660
christening: 15 July 1660 , INVERESK WITH MUSSELBURGH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
residence: 1660 Inveresk, Midlothian, Scotland
father: James Hay
mother: Janet Robertson
 
John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 1 December 1657 , YESTER, EAST LOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
residence: Yester, East Lothian, Scotland
father: John Hay
 
John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 31 May 1657 , YESTER, EAST LOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
residence: Yester, East Lothian, Scotland
father: David Hay
 
John Hay
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 7 December 1658 , YESTER, EAST LOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
residence: Yester, East Lothian, Scotland
by Frank Gill G2G Astronaut (2.3m points)
Hi Frank. I know I apologized for for the mixup and thanking Jillaine for your comments. But I wanted to apologize in public. I am so sorry for crediting Jullaine for information you so diligently compiled and sent my way. That is what I get when I try to do something when I am so tired. This morning I am a little more relaxed. The information will be put to good use. It is just going to be a little difficult just because the only real piece of evidence is that John Hay was the father of Simon Hay. People with more experience than me have answered questions with a little less than I have, but I will keep trying.

Once again I am so sorry for the mixup. And thank you so much for all of the help you have given me.

Marilyn Humrichouser Albert.
No problem. : )
Here is info that I have gathered...perhaps it parallels into someone else has and you can help me confirm it:

1) Gilbert Hay, 11th Earl of Erroll. Had a bad marriage to Catherine Carnegie. Bitter fights over her lack of love for him, her not wanting to have her father pay her dowry and not wanting to give him an heir. A Ballad was written about the situation. (You can find the Ballad on the Internet. It is quite famous). They divorced. Catherine became nanny to Prince of Wales' children after divorce. Gilbert (according to the Ballad and family tales) had child by another woman. Son's name was 'John''. Family tales say it was Johann Hoeh.

History books say Gilbert died without an heir. Family tale says Gilbert fled to Germany to escape the public ridicule his wife had caused him and also to avoid paying the fines he was being forced  to pay for his political loyalties. There is a group on Facebook called The Real Clan Hay. They have a lot of information.

An interesting note: a distant cousin of ours (through the Johann Valentin line) is the 'spitting image' of a portrait of Sir William de la Haye which is hanging in a Castle in Scotland....this cousin was very handsome, one of 4 brothers, and has dark brown eyes. When he was in his 20's he had dark hair down to his shoulders...just like the portrait! This cousin would have had no way of knowing that his appearance was so strickingly similar to an alleged ancestor. He was a young professor of Physics at an American University at the time and had no info about his lineage then.

It would make all make a great movie......

2) Johann Hoeh b. 1635(?) d. 1704(?)

(Hanns) Simon Hoeh. b. Around 1690. Children: Anna Catherina, Johann Valentin, Johann Michael (my line), Anna Maria, Johann Adam, Johann Theobald, Anna Ottilia.

3) Johann Michael Hoeh 1711-1773. B. Gerhardshru Kaiserlautern , Rheinland Pfalz. d.1773 Gerhardsbrunn, Palatinate, Bayern, Germany

4) Johann Simon Hay 1742-1842 b. Gerhardshru Kaiserlautern Rheinland Pfalz Germany. d. Berlin, PA, USA. Immigrated with 2 bros Frantz and Valentin on good ship Sallee to PA. In 1763. Settled in Brother's Valley, built a gristmill and large fish pond. Children were Jacob, Michael, George, Peter, Valentine, Elizabeth(Weller), Catherine (Miller) and Susan (Baker).

His son 5) George William Hay (My family's line) was born in PA in 1782. George was a farmer and manufacturer. He married Mary Countryman. Children were: Simon, Benjamin, John, William, George, Harry (my family's line) Herman, Jacob, Elizabeth,(Hoyman), Harriet(Shoemaker). And Mary A. (Bragger).

6) Harry George Hay was born in Brothersvalley, Somerset, PA. He married Margarey Gary (Geary) in 1844. Children: Samuel Wesley. Laura F., Mary Jane, Minerva Ann, Charles, Herman Lavan (my line) and Ellen 'Ella',

7) Herman had 6 children. One was a daughter named Sarah Margaret (Sadie) (my line). Herman had an wild crow that he taught to 'talk' without cutting a fork in it's tongue. Family tales say The smithsonian has a recording of the crow and Herman 'talking'. The crow knew several words and had an evil laugh it would make when it stole the clothes pins from Sadie's wash when he caused it to fall off the clothesline.
This is a great story! I look forward to your dad's results, NPU. I will note that the Hay surname project on FTDNA has one participant who traces his lineage back to William de la Haya, and another who traces his lineage back to Sir John Hay of Tullibody (1360-1418). I don't know anything more about them, but it appears that these two participants match each other up to 37 markers, but they do not match my Hay cousin...
Hi Heather. I am going to contact a male cousin of my father. I will see if he will let use his DNA for what we need. He is my father's cousin but he is closer to my age. His mother, is the sister to my grandmother.

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