Take away my points. Please.

+18 votes
1.4k views

Can we do away with the point system? OK, that's a stupid question; I know we can. The question is, can we get a quorum  to actually do it?

I expect to get some flak for this request, ahem… proposal, given that I lack WT seniority and I have engaged in point-augmentation behavior myself. The thing is, evidence is mounting up for me that the point system encourages sloppiness in inexperienced members and bad behavior in some others. I've been guilty of sloppiness due to inexperience (still learning!) and I let challenges get the best of me on occasion (source more profiles, faster!). Removing points does not mean eliminating games/challenges, which so many of us enjoy, but it might help increase the quality of our tree.

As an example, some members inflate their point and contribution numbers in artificial ways, at times to get access to certain features, such as pre-1700 certification, or to become part of projects. Just recently someone mentioned how a member was adding/removing an empty line to existing profiles to accumulate points. Is this what we want WT to be about?

in The Tree House by Francesca Murphy G2G6 Mach 6 (63.7k points)

I think this is a "pointless" concern. wink I thought about points as I closed in on 100,000 contributions, but once past that milestone, it didn't matter so much. It isn't like our points affect our pay grade. laugh 

Nice "point" cousin Kitty. I'm thinking points should be correlated to thank yous (if not already??) I'm also guilty of thinking if thank yous had more value, more people would go out of their way to help others which would assist in the collaborative effort/goal of WikiTree.

Hey Kevin, move over, Kitty is my cousin too!  Her pun on points being "pointless" had me in stitches and I'm still laughing.  I think she has some witty song write'n talent!surprise

And what humility! Wow!  Kitty is ranked 64th here!  That's impressive!  This is not "pointless",,,this is amazing!

588,910 points (ranked #64)

136238 contributions | 9104 thank-yous | 2315 connections

Kitty is Dave Draper's10th cousin

Where are points located? How do I check mine?
Just click on your name link:  https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/user/Stegall-578  Both your G2G and WikiTree contributions are tracked there.

9 Answers

+20 votes
 
Best answer
I have to agree with some of what you say, especially about artificially inflating points by minimal changes.

People work on WikiTree in different ways. I was a Greeter for several years and never had any problems hitting 1000+ points each month. When I stepped down, I had trouble hitting 500 points each month. I don't take part in challenges, etc., personal preference. When I'm working on sourcing or improving a profile, I can spend hours researching without making a single contribution. Yet I know I spend a minimum of 6+ hours a day working on WikiTree. I'm retired and enjoy doing the research and helping improve the tree, bit I'm sure my monthly contributions don't reflect the hours spent. Maybe there is a better way.
by Shirley Dalton G2G6 Pilot (549k points)
selected by Francesca Murphy
Shirley, I'm not sure there is "a better way".  Please don't misunderstand - this is not intended to suggest that I think the current way is at all good.  It's just that I wonder a lot about the penchant for treating genealogy as a competitive sport.

I agree that the point systems, for both G2G and contributions, are heavily skewed to "reward" those whose primary purpose is to amass points, which encourages working fast to accumulate quantity rather than being attentive to quality.

Sometimes, rating a person's knowledge by their points can result in the inverse of reality.  When I joined WikiTree, I knew absolutely nothing about genealogy and learned by asking lots (and Lots and LOTS) of questions here and trying to pay it back by answering lots of tech related questions (the only thing I do know about), which accumulated a lot of points.  All of a sudden, people started to ask me things, assuming that, because I had all these points, I know a lot.  I also have far more contribution points than what really reflects my contributions here.  Like you, I don't participate in the fun-and-games stuff that ends up achieving maximum points in minimum time, but because of concern with power stability and internet connectivity, I save  my work very frequently.

I have said many times here that there is only 1 statistic that has any meaning for me - the percentage of my answers that were chosen as best.  That is something that WikiTree doesn't report ranks for, but it would surely get my competitive spirit flowing if they did!
@Gaile: I think you may be confusing points, as in contributions for which you get monthly gongs, and points on G2G.
David, I assure you that I am not.
Thank you, Gaile.
What Gaile said!
+13 votes

The points system can of course be abused and yes we are all aware that multiple edited items resulting in 1 point is better than editing and saving frequently solely to up the points score however sometimes it is unavoidable. I am particularly prone to swapping letters round in words and putting in 2 letter m in ammend instead of 1 amend (there are several of this type of error that I often just don't notice).

When I read the text after saving I find them and have to correct them. A couple of days ago I kept on spelling Peadar as Paedar. I have got the hang of that now though.

I also realise often after saving that the grammar could be better so yes I am guilty.

BUT

What the points system does do is to give an idea of the experience of the person as an individual and that in my opinion is important. The points system on G2G is no indicator of a person's experience. Without mentioning any names I have seen peoples meteoric rise in G2G points where their contributions are minimal. The balance between the two may give insight into experience but in my opinion contributions weighs far more than G2G points. If someone is a G2G6 Mach 8 but only has 3000 contributions then they probably spend more time blethering than actually doing anything. (Not based on an actual case by the way).

If someone has been on WikiTree for 6 years and has 7200 points they are probably not as proficient as someone who has been on WikiTree for that length and has 60,000 points.

I do not believe that many strive to reach 1000 every month as that requires a lot of effort whereas 100 a month is achievable and I think many strive to achieve this, if perhaps by frequent edits.

You could deduct 7200 from a persons 6 year contributions (i.e. 1200 a year) to give the +100 value as maybe a better measure of their efforts.

In short, whilst I once thought the points system was not of much value, I do believe now that it has value when taken into consideration with other parameters.

ETA: Went instead of When in this which I just had to edit is a perfect example. I did not see it when I read over the text.

by David Loring G2G6 Pilot (162k points)

To me the point system does not give an idea of the experience of a person, not consistently, so in the end if it's not reliable all the time, it's not useful. In some cases it's very accurate, in others it's completely off.

In my case, as I gain more experience and I get more selective about what I do, the total points I accumulate is proportionally getting smaller. A superficial look at my profile page over time would suggest that I am becoming less involved in WT when the opposite is true.

BTW, I also save more often than I need to… a combination of typos, etc. plus an old habit from when you had to save every five minutes so you woudn't lose all your work at the next inevitable computer crash.

As I said: when taken into consideration with other parameters.

In my case, as I gain more experience and I get more selective about what I do, the total points I accumulate is proportionally getting smaller. A superficial look at my profile page over time would suggest that I am becoming less involved in WT when the opposite is true.

 by Francesca Murphy 

-

This is also true for me.   Also, like David - no matter how many times I review my text before saving, once no longer in edit mode I inevitably spot errors I missed.  (And if I still miss some after several corrections, someone else comes along and corrects them.)  Some of my typos are "fat finger syndrome", some are because my brain works faster than my fingers, some were due to a computer that had been ready for the junk pile until I had need of one, some are now due to a red backlit keyboard and my constant startlement that "everything is red" (my mouse is also red, and lights up when moved), some are predictive text that I don't notice (pretty much like my phone's autocorrect).
Some edits are because I think of a better layout, or better formatting, or have an image to add.

I just ignore the points now.  If I want an idea of someone's "expertise level", I will check random contributions, rather than look at the cumulative total.

I am the same sort of person who only spots the mistakes after hitting save.. even if I try, I wonder if it’s because the words move around on saving (due to box width) so I see the sentence differently and spot the mistakes. Someone this week thankfully noticed I’d misspelt Elizabeth, and corrected that…. And I often save a profile, not to increase points but so that I put the change in the reason box, so multiple changes might have multiple saving of a profile. If I just cared about getting to a specific number I’d stop when I got there…. Rather than continuing to edit profiles…. (But I’m relieved to hear I’m not the only one whose spelling isn’t perfect!)

I think if anyone was just editing a profile to put a blank line then they should be questioned as to why?
Some time ago when adding a reason for edit before saving was made mandatory, ex; adding sources, research, and other reasons.

There were a few questions about occasionally not being able to save edits because a message popped up that said something like ' no edits made' and person said, I did make changes.

One suggestion was and this is not a verbatim quote, if the system is not recognizing a change you made or think you made, make some other tiny change, like adding a comma or an extra blank line which should be recognised as a change, then the edit can be saved.

Whether I am remembering this accurately about 2 years later, I'm not sure.
+12 votes

The thing is: The old saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I like points! I am a Narcissistic (a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance) devil

1. Points make me feel like I have accomplished something here! 

2. Looking how far I have come (point wise) is a pretty neat.

2.5  MOTIVATION: I like to see how close I am getting to the 1000 points to get the next badge.  It tells me how hard I have to push (or coast) to achieve the next badge. 

3. Points for Pre-1770?  I could care less!  I don't want to be Pre-1700 certified

4. I look at my cousin's contributions to our family to determine how involved they are.  It is helpful to see that! Some of my cousins are not impressed with WikiTree for one reason or another and it shows up in their contributions.

5.Hmmm... Maybe this is the theme of my next funny song/poem "I'M RACKING UP POINTS ON THE WIKITREE 

*I’m racking up points on the Wikitree

*‘Cause I’m a narcissist, everyone can see!

 *Those status indicators are just waiting for me

*To rack up more points on the WikiTree!

*Now some here want equality!

*They don't want us climbing up the WikiTree

*But I don't want you besting me!

*I'm racking up points on the WikiTree!

wink Enjoy.  I going to stop now before I get kicked out here!

by David Draper G2G Astronaut (5.0m points)
edited by David Draper
They are very helpful for gauging how much you've done today versus yesterday, or last week, etc.

Dina is Dave Draper's 11th cousin once removed

+13 votes
Really? May i suggest that anyone doing this to acquire points find a new hobby. anyone who has time to worry asbout someones point accvumulationdse or hoe they wiki should find something constructive to do w/ their free timre. i am notcorrecting as i type tpo dermomnstrayte what a typical erntry lookds like before i edit. i have WmD in one eye and type w/ my middle knuckle due to a disabilty. i casnot go from keyboard to screen w/o some delay for my erye to refocus. For Me, it is far easier to correct a mistake than to try asnd prevent one. i cannot begin to express how excited i grt knowing i got another point or credit for an undeserved cpntribution. when i read comments like this i don t knoew if they are directed ay me or people loike me or people who are artyificially inflating points for whatever reason. I DON T KNOW OR CARE either way. i m new, i knoe i make mistakes. i do what i casn to correcy them even though it may require extra keystrokes and "extra" [oints.
by K Smith G2G6 Pilot (454k points)
+18 votes
To me, the point system seems harmless. I don't know the situations you described, but even so, it seems harmless to me.  If someone edited a profile to remove a blank line to get points, there was no harm to the profile, and if that is what is needed to keep them engaged. I say let them be. I believe they will get bored and look to something else to occupy their time. The hope is they focus on something more meaningful in Wikitree. I have to think they are learning simultaneously by viewing and many profiles, so that they can become more productive in enhancing Wikitree later.
by Jimmy Honey G2G6 Pilot (217k points)
I have yet to tell anyone about how many points i have acquired, but i have talked up some of my findings.  i find mistakes from my old files, existing files. i correct one or two things and move on. i have several family members that have one or two resources i could add, that i am comfortable with, with every intention of revisiting to add more resources and info later. i'm in the learning mode all the way around here on WikiTree
+7 votes

I think it is important to distinguish between G2G points and WT contributions. 

As others have said there are many times when a profile is edited, to add sources, or to edit a biography to add information or edit spelling or grammatical errors these are contributions, not G2G points. Sometimes an edit is necessary because something has been missed. 

Many people save changes to a profile every time something is changed. 

I usually only save changes after I have done everything that is needed at that time. That does mean I have less contributions. But it is my choice to do it that way.

G2G points are for questions, answers, votes up etc in this forum. 

Points have nothing to do with editing profiles.  

Though having said that I do agree that some members are very interested in accumulating G2G points. 

Answering a question with ' great question' or something similar and nothing else is not helpful to the person who asked the question.  

Voting up the non answers also collects G2G points. 

I am aware of a person who several years ago stated that their intent was to become a G2G pilot in as little time as possible. Quite what the benefit was imagined to be was and is still unknown. 

I believe that some people equate a vote up as the equivalent of a like on social media. 

When someone answers a question here, I first ask myself if the answer is useful, and depending on the answer I will sometimes look at other answers made by the same person, as a measure of how much the person knows about the topic. 

If the answer is about sourcing, biographies, technical details etc, I can look at the profiles that person manages and make my own decision as to their expertise or not with the topic. 

In the end getting upset about how others participate on WikiTree isn't a benefit to any of us.

by M Ross G2G6 Pilot (956k points)
As someone who likes to try to help out by providing answers on the G2G forum and also by recognising good work there by other people, I do find the acknowledgment provided by G2G points valuable. I agree with all M's remarks. It's good to validate what someone has posted with "Great question", or to ask a question back ... but those really should be comments (gaining no G2G points) not answers (gaining 100). However,  as M says, everybody can choose their own ways of participating.

As for WikiTree contributions, I like to try to create new profiles in a single step (one contribution) if I can. To do this I prepare everything offline first, partly automated. I feel I've failed a bit if I mess up and have to edit later. (The new beta system is good for this: for example it allows you to insert categories above the Biography header at the start, instead of having to do a subsequent edit to move them to the right place.) So my contribution number is low, but I have the satisfaction of knowing that most of my contributions were substantial ones.
I didn’t know that there was a distinction point wise between the two.

My frustration is often people post a comment to an answer and I really want to up vote their reply and I can’t.
+10 votes
I used to worry about making 100 contributions a month to get my monthly badge but as I gained experience, I realised it made me sloppy. Formatting was often forgotten though sources were valid.

Nowadays, I just do what I feel like doing and points don't matter to me. My goal is to help build the WikiTree Family Tree with my own ancestors and also many other members with no personal connections. I love the detective work.

I also started the Sourcerer's Challenge in January and it was slow going but satisfying. February's challenge saw me break 50 contributions, mainly because I learnt how to use the WikiTree Sourcer to create a biography and inline sources. It is so quick now and I can add multiple sources to a profile.

Anyway, it is no longer a race or a competition for me. I have lot's of re-formatting to do to keep me busy as well as add more profiles. It's fun, it's exciting and it's challenging.

Cheers, Rich
by Rich Moss G2G6 Mach 9 (96.5k points)
+10 votes
I don't think what you describe is a major problem on Wikitree. During my soon to be five years here I've seen a few maniacal point-chasers, amassing fabulous numbers of "contributions" in a short while. They rarely keep on more than a few months. Some quit, and some shift to more sensible behaviour. But the vast majority of active Wikitreers couldn't care less about "points".

For my own part, I'm here to give my big fat genealogy collection something like a permanent home, where it can hopefully be of pleasure to other genealogists after I'm gone. As a retiree I'm at it full time, and regularly score 3,000-4,000 contribs each month. But for me, that's not an end in itself, and nothing that I gloat over. It's just a metric of my work, and not a particularly good one. I take a lot more pride in trying to make my profiles "bullet-proof" by rigorous sourcing.
by Leif Biberg Kristensen G2G6 Pilot (288k points)
+7 votes
When the points system was changed sometime ago, and people who had qualified for a badge didn't get it, there were a lot of upset people posting on G2G, and Wikitree remedied the loss.

 What those posts revealed was that a lot of people use their monthly points total to set a target for their own motivation as to how much they do each month on Wikitree.

 Wikitree is probably missing an opportunity to motivate some people by having such a big gap between the 100 and 1000 badges.

 I use the 1000 contribution target to divide my time between Wikitree contributions and research.

I don't need any more contribution badges and wish we had the option of an annual summary badge.

 I prefer to make about 4 source additions or major edits at a time then save and review the profile, that way if something is seriously wrong I can restore the pre-edit profile.

 Like others I often find that my intended final review is followed by a number of other saves as a result of spotting errors, omissions, typos and layout or readability issues, including missing or surplus blank lines.

 At times I add or remove a blank line when the save button won't work, that seems to re-enliven the button.

 Contribution points and badges are just one of the ways Wikitree has to make it a bit of fun, they do no harm and help motivate people, and that does a lot of good.

 For me they mean I put more effort into sharing my research on Wikitree than I otherwise would, by inclination I'm a researcher, not a profile creator or improver.

 Anyone needlessly adding  removing lines to gain points is doing little harm and none to the profile.

 

 For my part
by Gary Burgess G2G6 Pilot (155k points)
On the subject of editing errors the part sentence at the end is an error, and I couldn't edit it.

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