Migration categories: "German Empire" as country needed [closed]

+8 votes
628 views
Hi categorization team,

I don't want to mess up all the structure, that's why I'm asking for help for the basic structure. The Germany Project needs for its migration categories the categories "German Empire, Emigration" and "German Empire, Immigration" to be able to categorize migration historically correct from 1871 to 1945. I suppose I am able to create the lower levels (like Prussia to United States), but I don't dare to create the Top Level category.

Edit: There surges also the question how to distinguish on lower level "Migrants from Prussia to United States" (and same level categories) during the time of the German Confederation (1815 through 1866) from "Migrants from Prussia to United States" during the German Empire. Maybe add "(German Empire)" to the latter category?
closed with the note: Found the category somewhere in the structure
in WikiTree Help by Jelena Eckstädt G2G Astronaut (1.7m points)
closed by Jelena Eckstädt
Hi Jelena, How many categories do you want to create? I am not a fan of the current emigration category "German Confederation". I would be quite happy to see it renamed.

Maybe the emigration categories should be renamed by Century. HRE sits in the 18th Century, German Confederation covers a lot of 19thC. Germany/German Empire is quite modern.

I don't know if I want to create a new post or ask my question here.
Above you mention German Confederation (Deutscher Bund) 1815-1866, and German Empire 1871-1945.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation
MY Question is Why when typing the address on a new profile do I not have an option to bring up "German Confederation" only "German Empire"?
The suggested location list skips Confederation entirely as German Empire is 1806-1918.

Of course these dates may not be standar for all of Germany, I am narrowly interested in Kingdom of Hanover.


if this is correct

Do you mean the suggestion list for place names that comes up when you start typing a name? This list is not of WikiTree, it is of FamilySearch. And this list is for German place names (especially before 1806) quite useless, since it doesn't show the territories of HRE. But as you say, the list also doesn't show the German Confederation. You don't have to use the suggestion, you can type your "own" version of location name in the box.
That is the answer I wanted, so now it makes sense.  Someone else was trying to tell me that a short time ago but now that you said it is from Family Search I fully understand..
Dieter told me much the same but did not say WT was using FS for the source.
The connection with FS in the drop-down location guide is an endless source of frustration for me when I am trying to use non-English-speaker categories.

2 Answers

+6 votes

Hi Jelena, there is already Germany, Emigrants (and Immigrants) which I always understood was for the period post 1871, I've certainly added lower level categories on that basis in the past. Germany, Emigrants has quite a few admin entities with lower level categories.

The issue at the moment, which I'm sure you're aware of as a Project, is profiles in the wrong category for the time period.

For example, in Migrants from Saxony to South Australia, (under Germany, Emigrants), there are profiles that migrated pre-1871, and should be in an admin entity category under German Confederation, Emigrants. We know the same thing happens in the earlier categories, (profiles that didn't migrate until after 1871). There is no easy solution, (that I know of) apart from constant monitoring. The problem does somewhat defeat the purpose of having the categories in different time periods. 

It is a difficult situation to resolve, faced with 2 categories like "Migrants from Hesse" and  "Migrants from the Grand Duchy of Hesse", people will choose the first one they see that looks right, it may or may not be the right one for their profile.

by Margaret Haining G2G6 Pilot (163k points)
Hi Margaret. I watch with this conversation with a lot of interest. When you look at the numbers this problem is not huge.

I think that Susan has set a great example with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Migrants_from_Duchy_of_Nassau_to_New_South_Wales. Clear explanation is good.
You could be right Steve, but I understood from Susan that there are a lot of profiles in the wrong category, especially under "Prussia". If it exists at all, its something the Project would want to be aware of, as I'm sure they are.

Explanation on the category page will only go so far, we know that many people choose a category from the category picker, although with the WT browser extension, it's now a lot easier to look at a category page, before adding it to a profile.
Bugger. With my credentials I can not leave any debate that might involve Prussia .
The good news to me is that the participants in this debate are very friendly.
Definitely all friends Steve, I don't really think there's a debate either, only observations. Not just confined to Aus either, there are ones migrated to other countries too, could be in wrong categories.
Margaret, eventually the Saxony profiles pre-1871 will end up in a subcategory "Kingdom of Saxony" (for German Confederation) and "Electorate of Saxony" (for HRE). The time between 1871 and 1945 is known as "German Empire" (Deutsches Reich in German) and only after 1949 Germany is known as Germany. (Actually there were the FRG and the GDR, and only since 1990 it is only "Germany").

German history is complicated. Really complicated. And it doesn't get easier when you dive in deep.

eventually the Saxony profiles pre-1871 will end up in a subcategory "Kingdom of Saxony" (for German Confederation) and "Electorate of Saxony" (for HRE).

I created those categories now, so that the fitting profiles can be put in there.

Hi Jelena, the category "Kingdom of Saxony, Emigrants" is the 3rd level category, which should only have profiles if no other information is available. In the case of the example I used, the replacement 5th level would be "Migrants from Kingdom of Saxony to South Australia", which I've created (and the 4th level one), and moved the profiles. 

If only the destination entity is known, but not the departure entity, then then a 4th level category can be used, for example, "South Australia, Immigrants from German Confederation". 

Back to your original question, were you looking to change the country "Germany, Emigrants (Immigrants)" to "German Empire, Emigrants" ?

Hi Margaret, yes the German Project (GP) knows that the term Prussia (or similar) is being wrongly used on many profiles (in location fields, on stickers) and many profiles are sitting in the wrong Category. Possibly, some people wrongly think "Germany" and "Prussia" are one in the same. Others, may be wrongly including Prussia in location fields because they are selecting bad locations from the drop down box. Unfortunately, many of the German locations in the drop down box are wrong. The GP is working to address this problem but it is a big job and progress is slow. We are tackling this in a number of ways - including by addressing ambiguities in the existing Category structures, renaming some Categories, deleting others and creating new ones; editing profiles to show the correct locations; removing Prussian stickers where they have been applied incorrectly, moving profiles to the correct Categories, and by communicating with PMs. Jelena is driving the Categorisation work and doing a marvellous job. I have been adding explanatory notes to some Categories such as the one Steve highlighted above. Separately, Jelena with the support of others in the GP has asked Admin to remove the historical German locations from the drop down box. Thanks for all your help in this process.
@Susan, @Jelena, I only wish I had an easy answer to the problem, but it pretty much goes with categories in this situation.

Having something on the category page will help going forward, (not with the existing ones of course), it doesn't need to be much, something like " This category is for migration from xxxx to xxxx, during the period from < year > to < year >". Now with the WT browser extension, it's easier to look at a category page before adding to a profile.

The other thing, I noticed earlier there is a significant number of profiles in the "Country, Emigrants" categories, like "German Confederation, Emigrants" and "Holy Roman Empire, Emigrants". These are level 2, top level, and shouldn't have profiles. Same as the level 3 "Admin entity, Emigrants" shouldn't have profiles. Level 5, "Migrants from .....to....."  is the best, but if only the arrival admin entity is known, then a level 4 can be used like "Victoria, Immigrants from German Confederation" or "Texas, Immigrants from Holy Roman Empire" etc.

I'm happy to help create some lower level migration categories if needed, to move some of the profiles out of the higher levels.
I agree. I am happy to help when I can. The Holy Roman Empire needs a bit more contribution from Projects outside from Germany.
Jelena has given me a lot of homework with "German emigrants to xxxx,,,,,,,"
Margaret, considering the middle/high level categories: I know that the profiles should be put in the narrower categories. But - I am just learning to navigate my way especially through the migration categories. At the start of December 2022 I wouldn't have thought that I would dive into the categories at all. I always hoped that the PLs would lead the way, but they chose to be not interested in the problem with the German categories. So, I am learning by doing, needing my time, but also taking the time I need to clear the seemingly thousands of categories which are either filled with the wrong profiles, wrongly named or ambiguous.
No problem Jelena, I am happy to help you with any migration categories any time.

Hi Margaret, this is an ongoing discussion. 

The vast majority of Wikitree users speak English as a native language and/or descend from English speaking countries. Part of the opportunity for Wikitree to grow is to make it more usable to the majority of the world population that do not speak English.

I agree with your comment regarding migration entity to migration entity: "Level 5, "Migrants from .....to....."  is the best.....".  I am currently looking at the profiles put into different categories for emigrants from a non-English speaking country and one of the largest I have found is https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Migrants_from_Sicily_to_New_York. There's quite a lot of connection between the Kingdom of Sicily and the modern region.

The Germany Project faces some extra challenges with many changes of country boundaries and languages in Europe over the last 500 years. I support the steps taken by Jelena to clean up the obsolete migration categories.

Steve, the size of (migration) categories always depends of the number of categorized profiles. The Italian Project is one of the projects that wants to add location (and thus also migration) categories on every profile that is somehow affected by Italy. That means they already have a huge number of categorized profiles, thus also their migration categories are already quite filled.
I do not quite agree.

My tally of categorized Italian speaking emigrate profiles is around 3,600. One point I was trying to make was that the job is easier when the country boundaries do not change. It seems to me simple to transform 'Kingdom of Sicily' to the present-day island.

Without much work I can add the categorised German speaking emigrant profiles by adding emigrants present-day Germany and Germanic Confederation and get over 7,000,

Our work would be a lot of easier if people stopped making war and shifting country boundaries.
+6 votes

After clicking a bit here and there, I found there is a category German Empire. It obviously already existed, but that means I can link the migration categories to it.

by Jelena Eckstädt G2G Astronaut (1.7m points)

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