Can Mawd ferch Gruffudd be added as a child of Mabel (Gloucester) FitzRobert?

+6 votes
421 views

Can Gruffudd-2 be added as a child of Gloucester-4? 

Mabel (Gloucester) FitzRobert (Gloucester-4) appears in most published sources to have had more children than appear in her profile. I am new to collaboration and not pre-1500 certified, but it would be great to see them added. There is a connection both to Henry I of England and to the Puritan Great Migration. She was the wife of Gruffudd ab Ifor Bach, as given in the profile, but some of his children are not listed as hers.

Mawd ferch Gruffuddappears to be a direct ancestor of Henry Bowen of Massachusetts, as is her brother, Rhys, identified in the Profile.

The children of Mabel are listed in the Lewis source given on the profile:  Our Royal, Titled, Noble and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins database online, compiled by Mr. Marlyn Lewis, follows Douglas Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry

This link goes to the page listing the children: Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins (over 193,000 names). - Person Page

Mabel of Gloucester1

Last Edited 4 Apr 2020

F, #155205

Father Robert, Earl of Gloucester, Baron de Creully & Torigni2 b. c 1090, d. 31 Oct 1147
Mother Maud FitzHamon2 d. 29 Sep 1157

     Mabel of Gloucester married Gruffudd ap Ifor Bach, son of Ifor Bach ap Meurig and Nest ferch Gruffudd, circa 1171.1

Family

Gruffudd ap Ifor Bach b. c 1150, d. 1211
Children

Do more seasoned medieval-types agree? If so, is there something I can do to fill out the connections?

Thanks in advance for any clarification or suggestions!

WikiTree profile: Mabel FitzRobert
in Genealogy Help by Cindy Knight G2G Crew (320 points)
retagged by John Atkinson
Adding medieval and pre-1500 tags.

4 Answers

+13 votes
Thanks Cindy, and sorry I didn't get time to reply yesterday when you posted the message on the profile.

However the website of the late Marlyn Lewis, isn't always a reliable source, and I would want to find other sources, preferably primary sources, before adding Mawd or any of the other children listed there.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (675k points)

Although not a primary source, Gary Boyd Roberts in Ancestors of American Presidents (2009), pages 327-8 shows the connection as well. Roberts cites The Royal Descent of 600 immigrants (2008, same author), pages 228 and 821-22, but I was unable to find the latter. The former does not cite any further sources beyond Royal Descent...

Thanks. It is helpful to know what Gary Boyd Roberts says, but I would not regard him as a reliable source and would again want to look for better sources, preferably - as John Atkinson says - primary ones.
+14 votes

Mawd ferch Gruffudd is already listed as a daughter of Gruffudd ap Ivor Bach, but for some reason not for that of his wife Mabel of Gloucester. Usually this is just an oversight, but we would want to make sure there is no reason to think she was illegitimate (none of the profiles suggest this). We can check Marlyn Lewis' sources.

Checking Richardson. Royal Ancestry, III (2013): 87. Richardson states Gruffudd ab Ivor Bach and Mabel of Gloucester had only one son, Rhys. No mention of illegitimate children, or of Maud.

Marlyn Lewis also cites Weis, Ancestral Roots, 7th ed. (1993): 154. This line also runs through their son Rhys with no other mention of other children.

Mawd as a daughter of Gruffudd ap Ivor Bach appears to come from Roberts. Royal Descents 500 (1993):391. But Roberts does not cite sources and is often unreliable.

We should find a better source.

by Joe Cochoit G2G6 Pilot (272k points)
+9 votes

For a question like this even Richardson and Complete Peerage can be problematic because they do not see it as their mission to list all children. Concernig the question of Mabel's own parentage, I am not sure why we are not following the source which we are in effect already giving which is Keats-Rohan (which I think we've basically copied from Medlands). The citation looks serious and clear and says Mabel was illegitimate. This implies her mother should be disconnected. None of the other sources we have seem to show much special attention to that point? I have tweaked our citation to make it a bit more clear where it is from.

The modern ODNB entry for Robert of Gloucester is by the well-known historian David Crouch and says "Welsh genealogies mention an illegitimate daughter, Mabel, who married Gruffudd ab Ifor, lord of Senghenydd in upland Glamorgan"

Concerning Mabel's children I suppose there is an old dilemma in medieval genealogy. If we know the name of one wife, do we assume she is the mother of all the children? Medieval land holders tended to remarry quite a lot.

by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Pilot (153k points)
edited by Andrew Lancaster
+5 votes
Not an answer, but another question. Why "Mawd"? Shouldn't it be "Maud" or the Welsh "Mallt"?

I just corrected the LNAB for her profile & for Ifor's profile, but I hesitated to change Mawd to Maud & thought I'd ask here first.

Thanks!
by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (697k points)

Related questions

+11 votes
4 answers
+9 votes
4 answers
+12 votes
1 answer
+12 votes
2 answers
286 views asked Feb 15, 2023 in Genealogy Help by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (697k points)
+6 votes
2 answers
306 views asked Jul 16, 2020 in Genealogy Help by Monica Kanellis G2G6 Mach 4 (41.6k points)
+21 votes
6 answers

WikiTree  ~  About  ~  Help Help  ~  Search Person Search  ~  Surname:

disclaimer - terms - copyright

...