Unfortunately no experience with UK records and I require assistance please?

+2 votes
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Charles Edwin Stuart McDonald immigrated from the UK to South Africa. I have his marriage and probate records. However I have no access/experience with UK records. Can anyone assist me with a Baptism record pretty please?
WikiTree profile: Charles Edwin Stuart McDonald
in Genealogy Help by Drika Brown G2G6 (9.3k points)

4 Answers

+2 votes
 
Best answer

Hi Drika,  

In theory everyone born in England and Wales after July 1837 has a GRO birth registration, which is why I and others have looked for that rather than a baptism record.  

However. it's estimated that in the first few years of the GRO up to 15% of births were not in fact registered, and it looks very possible that Charles's parents didn't register any of their children's births.  Re-reading your question, I suspect you may have asked us to look for a baptism because you'd already concluded that yourself, but in case you haven't here's why I think that: I looked for the children who appear with his parents on the 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses (see your earlier question) and couldn't find birth registrations for any of them.  A couple of them - Pauline and Dudley - have relatively unusual names, and I was able to search more widely for them, both in terms of geography and of possibly being registered under a different last name.  The other possibility is that Charles and his siblings were registered with completely different first names from the ones they used, but I looked for Charles under his other first names and I didn't come up with anything that way either - although if someone else can, that would be great.

I haven't managed to find a baptism record for you either, but someone with a paid-up subscription might.  

In the absence of either a birth reg or a baptism, I personally would be happy to use the 1861 census FamilySearch citation as a source for Charles having been born in Birkenhead, Cheshire between April 1852 and April 1853 (the census was taken on 7 April, and it's his age not his year of birth that was recorded). Birkenhead is only a couple of miles from the much larger and more famous Liverpool, so the probate record in South Africa is just being a bit less specific than the census record in England.  

LP

by L Parr G2G6 Mach 4 (47.8k points)
selected by Drika Brown
+4 votes

Free BMD has 2 results, https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/641b23edb620e0f474bcf363?locale=en

Charles MCDONNALD Baptism 29 Jan 1854 Lancashire Collyhurst : St Patrick : Unspecified

Charles MCDONELL Baptism 20 Nov 1856 Lancashire Liverpool : St Peter : Unspecified
Find My Past has no Baptisms 1852 plus or minus 5 years, they do have 8 Civil birth records in that time frame
The Lancashire on line parish clerks has 8 records, https://lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
No idea if any of these are your person, most do not have second or third names
by M Ross G2G6 Pilot (963k points)
I am inclined to think that maybe the information on the probate about his place of birth may not be accurate. Familysearch and findmypast was not yielding anything positive. Is there another site that I can search? Sensus records maybe, and where to find them?

Thank you for being willing to help. I aprpreciate it
If you look at this site  https://www.freeukgenealogy.org.uk/

which also includes the Free Reg site listed above it has all/most of  the UK censuses for most places, it could be helpful. It is completely free, and no login required.

Take enough time to read how the site works.
+2 votes
It could impact which indexes to search - could he have been born in Scotland? Ireland?

Did he marry in the UK?  That should have given his father's name.  What age did he go to South Africa - would we find him in UK Censuses?

ETA - just remembered to look at profile...
by S Brooks G2G6 Mach 1 (18.5k points)
edited by S Brooks
Unfortunately I can only give you the information as per the documents I have on his profile. He married an Afrikaans lady in South Africa as per his marriage record. His probate, 2nd line states "Waar geboren", (meaning where he was born) and then it says England Liverpool. This information could be incorrect. McDonald is a Scottish name if I am not mistaken? So it is possible that this is misleading.

He got married in 1882, which means he must have immigrated into South Africa before this date. I don't know if there are any emmigration records in the UK that may help? I looked in Familysearch and findmypast but had no luck.

His birth year is estimated as per the 2 records I have found. 1852 - 1854.  

Thanks for helping. Much Appreciated
Wikipedia says that MacDonald, Macdonald, and McDonald are surnames of both Irish and Scottish Origin. You might also consider the fact that Liverpool is a seaport town.
+9 votes

Although it's not a baptism record I wonder if this might be any use. I see from his profile that his father's name was John Malone McDonald, which is quite an unusual name. There was a John Malone MacDonald who died on 4 November 1856 and was buried in St Andrew's churchyard, Conway Street, Birkenhead (free-to-view image at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/2634798?mark=dc2a8ad92df37123fabf92e437de198a8531b04bf9b5a95902b985c73b46eb3f). Birkenhead is opposite Liverpool on the other side of the River Mersey. That record says his wife's name was Flora Jane, which looks very similar to the Clara Jane on the probate record, so might be a transcription error.

The General Register Office (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp) has his death registered as follows:

MACDONALD, JOHN  MALONE  Age at Death (in years): 53  

GRO Reference: 1856  D Quarter in WIRRAL  Volume 08A  Page 238

That would give a birth year of about 1803, which is not unreasonable for him to be the father of your Charles McDonald.

by Paul Masini G2G6 Pilot (471k points)
Thank you very much. This looks promising and possible. Worth investigating.
Drika, UK certs can be bought online from the GRO for a reasonable cost, and would give his place of death and the name of the informant and the deceased's occupation - of course, the information reported is what was known to the informant, so not guaranteed for accuracy.

Even tho the one record his Charles' place of origin (Liverpool), I do wonder if it's what we think it is, or if there might be obfuscation.  For instance, sometimes places of origin were hidden in the new country because of prejudice.  In the US, people often denied Ireland as a birth place and claimed Scotland (or being born in the US).  I don't know if there's an equivalent in South Africa.

I did look at Scotland's People's indexes and didn't spot your man, but no guarantees.  Scotland didn't start CivReg until 1856 (I think!), and Ireland didn't start full CivReg until 1864.  Also, if his father was military, Charles might have been born in any number of places overseas.

Are there newspapers in SA that might have carried an obit?  Any  possibility of church records that might give more detail?

Will play around with the UK 1861 census again, but when I looked before I couldn't get more specific.

Oh, and - UK CivReg started in 1837, and is pretty reliable.  There's always the potential that the writing was illegible and that the index has a mistranscription.  But, not finding him in GRO nor FreeBMD makes me suspicious that he wasn't born in parts of the UK that they index.
With that in mind, I really like this 1861 census record, with widowed Clara living in Liverpool, children including John (age 10, born Birkenhead) and Charles (age 8, born Birkenhead)

https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:M7TN-GL3
Maybe, maybe - in the 1841, remember that the UK census had "age rounding" for adults, so the age might be off by a few years.  Also, no stated relationships within the household.  No Place of Birth (POB) except Y/N for whether born in the county.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ25-DTX - John McDonald

S is correct. In more detail, at the 1841 census, the instructions were to round ages down to a multiple of five for people aged over 15. This was not always done however.

See 1841 census age rounding at Durham Records Online, via Katie's guide to English sources for WikiTree by Katie Fuller.

Sorry, had to go to an appointment.  I can't see from familysearch what occupation that John McDonald had in the 1841?  There is a John McDonald in the Channel Islands in the 1851 - might fit our man, except he's listed as unmarried.  However, he's part of a military unit, and I doubt they had a serious interview with everyone for the census.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:SG8T-YDH

I wasn't able to find Clara et family in the 1851, but haven't looked that thoroughly.  Ditto with a death for her.  It could be useful to follow the members of the 1861 household forward, and also the ones in the 1841.

S Brooks, You've found some of the same census returns I did yesterday - only to realise that Anonymous Baker had already found them on Ancestry in answer to Drika's previous question. All three of us could of course be making the same mistakes, but here is the list of familysearch links for the records we've found in the Liverpool area between us to date: 

1841 Walton on the Hill, Liverpool (West Derby Reg District)

1851 Oxton [Birkenhead], Cheshire  (Wirral RD)

1861 Everton, Liverpool  (West Derby RD) 

1871 Liverpool  (Catherine St, Mount Pleasant sub-district but not sure which RD) 

Clara's age is rather variable and there are some transcription errors, but the family groups as a whole are the same, I think.  

In favour this being the family of Drika's Charles: 

- death reg and burial for John Malone MacDonald in Birkenhead in 1856 (notwithstanding the Clara / Flora transcription issue) 

- mother's name (Clara was not a very common name in England for women of her generation) 

- there is a brother called Dudley (transcribed Audley in 1861).  Drika's Charles named his first son Dudley.  

On the other hand, the household had all-but broken up by 1871 and Charles, who would have been 18, was not living with his mother.  Had he died (in which case he's definitely not our man!) and if not where was he?  I'm struggling to find any of the rest of the family after 1861, and Clara & Pauline after 1871.  Did any of the rest of the family emigrate? 

Another small point to note: St Andrew's, Conway Street, Birkenhead (where John Malone MacDonald was buried) was a Scottish Presbyterian Church, so presumably this was his religious affiliation and we should bear that in mind if looking for baptisms.  

LP

I found older daughter Pauline's death.  She was still in the same street as in 1871 census when she died in 1925, according to probate. 

Death reg and burial have her named as Clara Pauline Janet MacDonald. Probate has Pauline Clara Janet MacDonald. 

She was the first of the children to be born in England according to census returns (the first two were born in Scotland and India). But I can't find a birth registration in England & Wales under any of her three names.  

It was still quite unusual to have three names when she was born, so this is an indicator of sorts that Charles Edwin Stuart may have had all three names from birth, rather than adding some when he emigrated.  

This could be brother Dudley emigrating to New York from Liverpool in 1891, and this could be oldest brother DeLacey following him in 1895.  Both were recorded as single.  

Unfortunately this seems to be leading us further from South Africa, not nearer. That might be because all the migration indexes (Familysearch, Findmypast, Ancestry) start in 1890, after Charles had died, of course. 

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