Which category in Germany, do my ancestors belong?

Question

Have been putting my ancestors in categories, to make locating them for reseach/editing easier, but there are so many categories under Germany, that I'm not sure where to put this tree branch.  The ancestors were in several locations, all about 15 or so miles west of Stade, in what I think of as the Kingdom of Hannover. There is a Kingdom of Hannover Categoy in Lower Saxony, but also a separate category for States in Lower Saxony, with none that I recognize. Is Lower Saxony states for more recent profiles and Kingdom of Hannoever for the older 1700 &1800's profiles?  Is there a Germany catagories expert that can direct me to the correct placement of those folks? - Thanks

Answer 1

[[Category:German_Roots_Project]]

[[Category:Bavaria%2C_Germany]]
[[Category:Bavaria]]
[[Category:State_of_Bavaria]]
[[Category:Bayern%2C_Deutschland]]
[[Category:Bavaria,_Germany]]

[[Category:Rheinland-Pfalz%2C_Deutschland]]
[[Category:Rheinland-Pfalz%2C_Germany]]
[[Category:Rhineland-Palatinate%2C_Germany]]
{{German Roots}}

These are the categories I have placed my 2GFather in, due to what I understood about Categories on Wikitree. At the risk of starting another firestorm about categories, let me explain why.

He obviously was born in Germany, so should rightly be a member of the German Roots Project. He grew up in Bavaria in an area that was so close to Rhineland-Palatinate that it eventually became a part of that region. The duplicates arise from the fact that Wikitree allows several categories for the same thing, so we end up with regions in English, in German, and any other variation members can come up with (and believe me, they have!).

After 20+ years working with Genealogy, I'm still willing to find informaiton about my ancestors ANY PLACE I can get it. For that reason alone, I don't care how many categories my ancestors show up in. My lowest category right now happens to be the German Federation subdivisions, and haven't added towns and cities yet.

Your example, if we work on the same premise, would yield the same results. Your ancestor(s) would be part of the German Roots Project, and I guarantee there are multiple iterations of Hannover, Saxony (Lower or Upper), or any other region they come from. To be doing other researchers the service we say we want to perform, I think you should try to include your ancestor(s) in as many of them as you can.

Misspellings, historical changes, language differences, and so on, each create a category. Since there is Category God at this time, we must each try to find a workaround, if you will, to locate our ancestors in a place where others can find them. For my 2GFather above, knowing people can find him in any one of 10 categories, instead of only two or maybe three, gives me comfort.

Comments

Thank you, Michael and WOW, your category options look even more confusing than the ones I'm trying to select from (or have discover yet). Being aware of the general problems that the folks trying to organize categories are faced with, I'm hoping to not be a part of the problem, by placing a bunch of people in the wrong place.  Yes, Hannover/Hanover is a challenge due to the variety of uses as place name. Guess I'll select Kingdom of Hannover, as the one to group then into - that is what it was called for most of the time my family lived there, but it seems like it should be included in the States of Germany and not an either/or option, unless that Category is for something else.  (shoulder shrug)

I have the same problem in Norway, Horg has referred to different places and boundries, over a few hundred years - everytime I think I have it sorted out and change the place names, I find information that suggests that I still haven't got it right. At times it referred to a small specific location, other times a huge county or state type place, and there are even a few small farms by that name :(  The key is ln the proper sequence of place names. 

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Patt, I'd love to see the process simplified, but until (and if) we can merge categories easily like we merge profiles, I can't see many alternatives. Nothing would please me more than a simple link to one category for each of my German profiles that everyone on Wikitree can use to get to them.

I was getting ready to work with my Scottish and Irish ancestors, but got cold feet when I saw how many similarities in categories showed up there (like your Norse). I'll stick with my Rhinelanders for now. Good luck with your research - we'll work it out in the end,.

Answer 2

Hi Patt,

 

please read the details of this free space profile which explains all about the correct way of setting up regional categories in Germany (and also which category to put in for your ancestor):

http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Space:Structure_and_how_to_use_regional_categories_for_Germany

If you name the places I can help you with identifying the right categories or even create them quickly for you.

For Stade it is both a city as well as a district at the same time. This is the entry for the city: http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/STAADEJO43RO and this is the one for the district by the same name: http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/adm_133359

 

You probably want to use the district one only if you don't know the precise location within the district. Currently there are no locations underneath the district category page: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Stade_(Kreis),_Niedersachsen

Like I said, please mention the profiles and exact locations and I will try to help as much as my time allows

Comments

Hi Andreas, thank you for the information. The problem is that I can’t translate all the complex information on the Germany category structure to a place on the map, so I ended up putting them all in Kingdom of Hannover. I know where the people lived, I just can’t figure out where the WikiTree categories are on the map. Most families were in Schwinge, Boerde Mulsum, Hannover, and a few in other towns of Boerde Mulsum. Some other families were in Boerde Selsingen, Hannover –Blumenthal, Kirchspiel Horst, Hannover, etc. etc. etc.. All the assorted locations are in a small area, 15 or so miles west of Stade. However, the problem is finding a corresponding place, in the States categories for Germany – there is no indication in the complex category structure, telling what the areas are, and the category names are meaningless to me - when I open them, there is no clue what that place is. I’ve googled many of them and still clueless, as to where those places are.

 

I put this entire tree branch in the Kingdom of Hannover, since it was the only category, that I could be certain was a place that included that small area west of Stade. They weren’t in Stade, I just use it for a location finder on the map – once I find Stade (which is usually on every map) I can navigate west, a few miles, and find where these ancestors lived (I just can’t find the WikiTree category for that area).  When I categorized the Norwegians and the USA ancestors, it was soooo easy, but when I look at Germany I’m hopelessly lost. 

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Hi Patt,

please do read the link above, it has all that you've been looking for in it, especially under point 8 I'm highlighting where to search for small places like these and then how to proceed in case you can't find a category for them.

This is Schwinge: http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/SCHNGE_W2161

This is Aspe: http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/ASPSP1_W2161

Here's the new category: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Aspe%2C_Niedersachsen

This is Kutenholz (Municipality): http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/KUTOLZJO43PL

Here's the new category: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Kutenholz%2C_Niedersachsen

 

I always link them as well to Kingdom of Hannover, if during the time mentioned on the old records it was under the Kingdom of Hannover itself.

 

I guess you can take it from here, take my two new entries as an example, copy always the German Wikipedia entry (only the first paragraph), add it as a source as well and if there is an English equivalent you can put it below another line and under the headline of "English version") in the same format (first paragraph and source link.

You can check this category for an example of a bi-lingual category: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Stade_%28Kreis%29%2C_Niedersachsen

Please remember that this level should be in German, only the top three category levels are in English as well.

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Hi Andreas, Just too complex for my navigation skills :( - will remove them from the Kingdom of Hannover though. Thanks for your help.

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Patt, why don't we do this. I will create the categories one by one. I've already created Aspe and Kutenholz.

If you could go through your ancestors and re-map everyone that has a life event in those two towns and also take out for those the category for Kingdom of Hannover.

Once you're done you tell me the next two categories, we should start with those were most of your ancestors are from. Once created you again go through your list and put that category in.

We should be able to manage this together, don't you think?

Taking them out of the Kingdom of Hannover and not putting them into the correct category would be a defeat and not a victory. Shall we try together?

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Got the Aspe, Boerde Mulsum folks entered. Also in that same vicinity of Boerde Mulsum, there are people in: Schwinge, Boerde Mulsum -- Hesedorf, Boerde Mulsum -- Gross-Fredenbeck, Boerde Mulsum -- Klein-Fredenbeck, Boerde Mulsum -- Wedel, Boerde Mulsum

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Patt,

Schwinge, Fredenbeck (there is no Klein or Gross-Fredenbeck in todays city name, so we have to go with Fredenbeck alone, sorry), Wedel and Mulsum is created.

There is no Boerde Mulsum, only Mulsum which is part of Kutenholz (municipality), I suggest you also take that out of your locations (unless it's explicitly named in the primary sources that you refer to. As it seems its from LDS, I'd rather take it out as the volunteers there do produce errors from time to time. You can rather take in the county information which in most cases is Stade (see below).

I had some trouble in locating your Hesedorf. It's actually a part of the town of Bremervörde which is a bit to the West of the other locations and unfortunately in another county already.

Green light to go ahead again, Patt

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Thank you, Andreas. Will work on editing place names on a future edit cycle - to many changes and I loose focus on this cycles purpose, of strengthening souces. Which is how I ended up putting this whole group in Kingdom of Hannover, for my source editing task.  Glad to put them in towns for WikiTrees goal, but I still need someplace to put them, so that I can see the whole family on one page.

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Make a free space profile and put them all in there. Give it a proper name that helps you find them. Easy like that and voilà they are all sorted on one page.

Answer 3

It's not easy to get all places correctly. Germany consisted of dozens or even hundrets of independent counties and kingdoms that made allies or fought wars between each other regularly.

For example Schleswig-Holstein or parts of it switched between being German and Danish regularly. I live there now and all I know is that it was Danish when the railway was build (still all trains stop at Hamburg-Altona wich was the border station at that time) and that the last change of the border was with the end of WW II. Bismarck is the one who is said to have united the German Counties and Kingdoms. Before that the circumstances where caotic. Some royal married and suddenly a region belonged to another kingdom and all that changed for the civil persons was that they paid taxes to someone else. There were jokes in German speaking newspapers, that you were not able to go from one end of a farm to the other without paying a toll. Sometimes some German counties even belonged to other countries officially because the king of another European Country was duke of some German county at the same time.

I tend to put the places as they are now because it's almost impossible for me to find out what exactly it was at the time the persons lived. That has the advantage that all persons who lived in the same place are listed in the same place and the disadvantage that someone who lived in a region that switched countries may be listed as living in "Germany" (wich didn't even exist as a country until somewhere around 1890 or so and before only named the region in which people spoke German) who were listed as born in Denmark (or Netherlands or Poland depending wich region it was) in a census or passenger list.