Duplicate profiles for Walcheline de Ferrers?

Question

In removing GEDCOM junk from some orphaned profiles this morning, I came across this unsourced profile where the GEDCOM import had clearly moved data between fields. I moved the name Walcheline from the prefix field to the first name. I moved the place name Egginton from the first name to the location field. I moved the non-existant place Ferrers from the birth location to the LNAB. Changing the LNAB required me to adopt the profile; and created a new Wiki ID which erased the change history.

The resultant profile appears to be a duplicate of Ferrers-400, but there are significant differences. I have set it as un unmerged match. The original profile had previously been set as an unmerged match of Ferrers-11, but William and Walcheline seem to have been brothers whose biographies have been conflated.

Answer 1

I did a simple search, and came up with two Wikipedia articles (one of which is unsourced) for second cousins, both born about 1135.

This one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkelin_de_Derby (of Derby) appears to correspond to Ferrers-400. Parents, spouse and death date match.

The other one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walchelin_de_Ferriers (of Oakham), son of Henry)  corresponds to Ferrers-429 and MAY correspond to Ferrers-510 . This article, which IS sourced, does not name his wife, but names sons Henry and Hugh, and daughter isabella.

Comments

Then the reference to Oakham on Ferrers-400 must be a confusion between the two.

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That is what I was thinking too.

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I'm leaning towards proposing a merge of F-510 into F-429, but the birthplaces of F-400 and F-510 need swapping over. Some online trees show Alice Leche as the wife of F-429, but I can't see an authoritative source for that; nevertheless it suggests that F-429 was the person the original contributor intended.

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See my comment below, I'm fairly sure that F-400 isn't a Ferrers at all and his wife Goda isn't from the Toeni/Tosny family.

Answer 2

The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed, vol. 4, starting on p.190 has information about the early Ferrers or Ferrieres family.  See particularly note c on p. 191 which demonstrates where Walchelin de Ferrieres fits into this family.  I think this makes Walchelin and William de Ferrers second cousins, definitely not brothers.

Comments

Thanks John. It's becoming clearer to me that we have two Walchelins, Ferrers-400 son of Robert and Ferrers-429 son of Henry. Ferrers-400 was of Derbyshire, not Oakham, so the birthplace on that profile needs to be transferred to Ferrers-429. Ferrers-510 has the birthplace and date of Ferrers-400, but not the correct wife - is she a fiction? or is she the unknown wife of Ferrers-429? https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Lecha-1

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I'm beginning to think that Walkelin de Ferrers-400 isn't from the Ferrers family at all, and that his wife Goda, isn't from the Toeni/Tosny family.  The Wikipedia article that Janet has linked to above, doesn't actually cite any sources for the section titled Living, where his parents, her parents, and their children are mentioned.

K.S.B Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166, vol. 2 Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum, (Woodbridge, Suffolk : Boydell Press, 2002). doesn't mention either Walkelin or Goda in the articles about their supposed fathers.

As well as providing for Derby School, they appear to have something to do with Darley Abbey  but I can only see snippet views of some of the texts related to both of these.  See The Cartulary of Darley Abbey, vol 1 and The Victoria History of the County of Derby, vol, 2.

The charter to grant house and land to Derby School is available in Educational charters and documents 598 to 1909 by Arthur Francis Leach.  The charter has original latin and English translations side by side, starting on bottom of pp. 110 & 111, and then over the page to top of pp. 112 & 113.

From what I can see in the snippet views, there is a son Peter of Derby, who might just be the son of Goda, and also a son Robert, who might be a son of both or just of Walkelin.

The Derbyshire Record Office catalogue, has a number of charters where a Robert son of Walkelin is one of the witnesses.  See here as an example.  It seems likely this is the same man and I think if he was from the Ferrers family his name would be mentioned, not just Robert son of Walkelin, particularly as he is witnessing a grant by William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby.

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Darley Abbey was founded by Robert de Ferrers, 2nd Earl.

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Actually co-founded: the foundation was initiated by Hugh de Derby.

Maxwell Craven, the Derby historian (not always reliable), says that Walkelin de Ferrers was the third son of Robert de Ferrers, 1st Earl; a crusader who left a son Hugh. Walkelin de Derby was different person, mintmaster of Derby until 1155 when the mint was closed. His wife Goda was daughter of Ralph Alselin or Hanselin of Haverholme, Lincs. Walkelin de Derby died 1161/2; his widow Goda married Robert de Derby, youngest son of Hugh de Derby (founder of Darley Abbey).

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Thanks Stephen, but unless Craven is citing some reliable sources, I think he is incorrect about Walkelin de Ferrers being the third son of Robert de Ferrers, 1st Earl.

As I mentioned Keats-Rohan states that Robert de Ferrers 1st Earl of Derby had an only son Robert, who succeeded as 2nd Earl, and several daughters, naming 3 of them.  Although perhaps a bit circumstantial, The Complete Peerage, names Robert, 2nd Earl of Derby as 'son and heir' of Robert, 1st Earl, not eldest son and heir.

The profile of Walchelin de Ferrers, son of Henry indicates that he was the one who was a crusader, along with his second cousin, William de Ferrers, 3rd Earl of Derby, and that Walchelin de Ferrers had a son Hugh.  Though I haven't checked the sources being cited.

An article by L.C. Loyd, 'The Family of Ferrers of Ferrieres, St Hilaire and its connection with Oakham,' in The Rutland Magazine and County Historical Record, vol 1 1903-4, pp. 177-185. (this link opens a pdf of the whole journal and the article starts on image 222 of 327) starts by saying that successive writers, starting with Dugdale, have attempted to connect this Walchelin de Ferrers of Oakham to three different Earls of Derby, and I presume Craven may be following one of those sources?

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I also have some doubts that Craven is correct about the de Derby family involved with the foundation of Darley Abbey, and it would certainly be good to know what sources he is citing.

A section of The Victoria County History of Derby, vol. 2 concerning The Abbey of Darley is available online, and it mentions Hugh de Derby as the founder, a son of Simon de Derby, and that Hugh has a son Henry (no mention of a son Robert).

There are also a couple of articles concerning the Chartulary of the Abbey of Darley in the Derbyshire Archaeological Journal.  Cox, J.C., The chartulary of the Abbey of Darley and the Oratory of St Helen, Derby, vol 26, pp. 82-140, which has abstracts of all the charters (in Latin) which names Walkelin de Derby and his wife Goda.  Also names Walkelino monetario, who is presumed to be the same person.

There are also mentions of sons of Goda (or Gode) including Robert and Peter, and Henry, Walkelin, August, Peter and possibly William as sons of Peter, and Petronilla, daughter of Peter.  Whether these all relate to fhe same Goda, wife of Walkelin is unsure.  But again I can't see any mention of a Robert de Derby as a husband of Goda?

There is also a section on the Derley Priory in Derbyshire, in Monasticon Anglicanum, vol 6 (pt 1) pp. 357-362 but again all the charters are in Latin

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Many thanks John. I agree that Craven has got Walchelin the crusader wrong.

I will dig into the sources for Walkelin de Derby later, but it does seem that he is not linked directly to the Ferrers. Possibly the antecedent of the FitzWalkelins who were sub-tenants of the Ferrers at Radbourne? https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Raborna-1

I have proposed a merge of the unsourced profile F-510 into F-429 of Oakham.

F-400 needs a lot of work to remove the conflations with F-429 and F-11; and resolve whether he was a Ferrers at all or whether he was Walkelin de Derby.