mtDNA Mystery - Canada to France to Finland?

Question

After five years of waiting I finally got an exact mtDNA match (GD=0). The earliest known matrilineal ancestor of the match is Marie (Fant) Tan (abt. 1605) which fits well with what I know about my matrilineal line so far since my earliest known matrilineal ancestor is my 3rd GGM Exelia Rose (Stone) Cady (abt. 1854) (probably originally Desrochers). I say it fits well because Marie Fant's daughter Madeleine Haneton (abt. 1645 - 1689) (also a matrilineal ancestor of my match) was a Filles du Roi who immigrated to Canada (where I believe my 3rd GGM Exelia Stone was born) from Paris, France in 1668. Further support for the connection is from a triangulated auDNA match between my mother and two others whose MRCA is Ida Cora (Lacomb) Moussaw (1863-1961) who is the 5th matrilineal great granddaughter of Marie Fant. This match is on a DNA segment I believe is from Exelia Stone (based on others who match on it).

The interesting thing is that nearly all of my next closest mtDNA matches (fifteen at GD=1) who have trees posted have matrilineal ancestors from Scandinavia, primarily Finland. One that stands out is Maria Franti (abt 1625 - 1707). And a quick search tells me that the Fant surname appears to be most common in Finland.

Many auDNA matches seem to indicate that Exelia Stone's ancestors had connections to the Canadian maritime provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and the Madawaska region. There also seem to be possible Irish/Scottish ancestors in the mix.

I'm hoping that my fellow Wikitreers might have some more knowledge of these issues such as migrations from Finland to France circa 1600. Madeleine Haneton's immigration to New France as a Filles du Roi, might she have been the daughter of a recent immigrant in France, did she have any siblings? Are there any resources that might help in solving this mystery? All feedback is much appreciated.

Comments

What is the specific mtDNA haplogroup and what history is that haplogroup supposed to have?  

If it is H-something, it might have a French lady who ended up in Finland, maybe not all that long ago considering.

If it is V-something, it might be more likely that a Finnish lady ended up in France.  

So that might be something to look into...

Cheers

Shirlea

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Thanks Shirlea, my mtDNA haplogroup is H5 (actually my mom's test). Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be of much help on a genealogical timescale since it appears to be distributed pretty much throughout all of Europe, albeit at slightly different concentrations. Looking at the handful of most distant matrilineal ancestors of my matches isn't very conclusive either, but it does appear to favor Scandinavian origins. My closest match (GD=0) has a MDA from France in 1605, but with a decidedly non-French name, Fant, the origins of which (depending on who you believe) could be English, French or Italian, but the current highest concentration seems to be in either Finland or Latvia. Of the seven GD=1 matches who have MDAs there are one each in Finland, France, Germany, Ireland and Sweden and two in Norway. At GD=2 the MDAs are again dominated by Scandinavian countries with one from Finland, two from Norway and five from Sweden as well as two from France and three from Germany.

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Bearing in mind that a lady with the family name Fant probably got that name from her father while getting her mtDNA from her mother, I wouldn’t get too excited yet about the family name…

Have you joined any haplogroup project teams or anything like that?

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Yes, I'd thought about that. It's just that it seems too much of a coincidence when everything is factored in. I don't know much about surname conventions in Finland at that time. I do know from researching my Swedish and Norwegian ancestors (on my paternal side) that farm names were fairly common in those areas. My great grandmother was a Svendberg because her family was from Svenneby, Sweden. Between the patronymics and the farm names I usually end up giving myself a headache working on that branch.

I joined my yDNA haplogroup (RM-269 predicted) awhile back, but I've only done testing to 37 markers. I don't have enough close matches to really justify the expense of further testing at this point. I haven't joined any mtDNA projects mainly because I figure H5 is so common that it's not likely to be of much use for genealogical purposes. I'm hoping that either the prices for mt & yDNA testing will come down or they'll start to be included in regular testing when full sequencing prices get low enough and this will get many more people tested to make them more useful for genealogy. Up til now I have to admit that I've gotten for more value from my autosomal testing.

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Hi again Paul,

H5 may be fairly common, but there are lots of sub-clades, and it could be useful to you to know where your mom's DNA fits in.  

Wikipedia (not always the most up to date source for genetic genealogy, but a basic starting point) has the following subclades listed:

This phylogenetic tree of haplogroup H5 subclades is drawn from Mannis van Oven, PhyloTree.^[18]

• H5'36
  • H5
    • H5a
      • H5a1
      • H5a2
    • H5b
    • H5c
      • H5c1
        • H5c1a
        • H5c1b
      • H5c2
    • H5d
    • H5e
    • H5f
    • H5g
    • H5h
    • H5i
    • H5k
    • H5l
    • H5m
    • H5n
    • H5o
    • H5p
    • H5u

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When my mom's mtDNA was done by FTDNA, it came back as mtDNA haplogroup H1a1a1.  I'm interested that yours had a lot less definition.  It would be interesting to know if hers is really the founding group with no defining mutations, or if they just didn't tell you the rest of the letters and numbers.

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I'm guessing the FTDNA site has a pretty recent listing of the subclades. For instance the H5a1 subclade has about two dozen subclades beneath it. Overall they list 81 subclades for H5. And I'd still be guessing, maybe hoping, that they left 384 of us in H5 is that we match the original H5 definition, it appears to be the most common of all the subclades within H5. I did check the FASTA file and there is a base assigned to every position, I don't find any blanks or noreads, though I'm not sure how they would indicate them. Guess I'll just have to make do with being plain old vanilla H5.

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Actually, if you expand the subclades and look at THEIR subclades, H5a* is the most common H5 branch (I think, I didn't look at every single one).

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/H;name=H5

Your FASTA file goes straight through whatever is seen, so you won't see any no-calls. You might want to run James Lick's utility to see your "extras." If you share some extras with your matches, they would become markers for a new subclade, e.g. H5v or whatever letter is available.

Answer 1

hi Paul,

Francogène has yDNA for Madeleine Hanneton and her husband, isn't showing mtDNA.  Madeleine only has one daughter who married, Marie.  Don't see that your maternal line has been built past gggrandmother, so not seeing the link to Madeleine Hanneton.

Comments

Thanks Danielle,

Yep, Exelia Stone/Desrochers, my 3rd GGM, is my most recent brick wall on the Quebecois branch (maternal grandmother's) of my tree, along with her husband Denis Cady/Cayer. I've been searching for their parents for quite a few years now. For the past six years using my mom's DNA tests. They're the main reason for the majority of the thousands of Quebecois profiles I've created, filling out the trees of DNA matches, I figure I'll have to run into them eventually. Only question is whether I'll know it or not when I do, or if I already have. The only link to Madeleine at this point is through my mom's only exact mtDNA match who I think is something like Madeleine's 8th GGD. I figure Exelia's mother is most likely somewhere in the maternal line between Ida Cora (Lacomb) Moussaw (1863-1961) and Madeleine Hanneton so I've tried to fill in all the women in that line, but, as I'm sure you're aware, they can have a tendency of disappearing in the records after baptism.

Answer 2

I am also curious if you have done the full mitochondrial sequence. H5 is one of the few haplogroups that use hypervariable region markers. But as mentioned above, there are many subclades with more specific markers in the coding region. FTDNA has made some stats publicly available. If you look at the country report, there are a total of 5974 H5 records, but all but 384 have been assigned a more refined group.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/H;name=H5

If by chance you haven't done the full sequence, it's currently on sale for DNA Day.

Comments

Thanks Ann, My Mom's test was full sequence since it's the only one that I see having any potential value for genealogical purposes. And I did get it on sale, of course, wouldn't have it any other way.

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That's interesting. The next update of the tree might be able to assign you to a new subclade.

Answer 3

I don't think your mtDNA matches with a genetic distance of 1 will help you with what you are trying to determine.  You need to stick to those with a 0 genetic distance, as otherwise you are talking about a much more distant ancestor. You might find this article helpful (scroll down to the mitochondrial DNA section).

• Matching on HVR1 means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last fifty-two generations. That is about 1,300 years.
• Matching on HVR1 and HVR2 means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last twenty-eight generations. That is about 700 years.
• Matching exactly on the Mitochondrial DNA Full Sequence test brings your matches into more recent times. It means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last 5 generations. That is about 125 years.

Comments

Thanks Darlene, I've been mostly focused on my single zero GD match I mentioned above. I actually don't even bother looking when I get emails about HVR matches anymore. I do find my GD=1 full sequence matches of interest though they're not likely to be of much genealogical value, except possibly for the strange situation I mentioned where one of them has a  matrilineal EKA with a surname very similar to my zero distance matches EKA (Frantii vs Fant) both born around 1600. I also follow the GD=1 matches based on the situation Roberta mentions in the article of a woman who had a GD=1 match with her mother. I know it's a very small probability, but mutations have to happen sometime, and they may have been very recent.

Thanks for the link. I've followed Roberta's blog for some time now and had read that article in my research before shelling out the big bucks for the mtDNA test. Interestingly, FTDNA has amended that information on their site to this:

"Matching at HVR1, HVR2, and the coding region brings your matches into more recent times. It means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last 5-16 generations (or about 125-400 years). Because this level looks at the entire mitochondrial sequence, our matching program allows a Genetic Distance of up to 3."

I find this pretty unclear. I'm not sure why they place a range on the timeframe when it seems an upper limit would be more appropriate. They also never mention an exact match which might give the mistaken impression that a GD=3 match would have a 50% chance of sharing a matrilineal MRCA in 400 years which, at least according to my limited knowledge of mtDNA, is pretty far off. And I have to believe that the confidence level would change pretty significantly between 5 and 16 generations?

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Hi Paul, yes, a GD of -3 would likely be beyond genealogical information.  I speak from my own experience as far as using only zero genetic distance.  I've been working with mtDNA for over twenty years.  That's the first test I ever did on my dad (to help a purported cousin).  Even the zero GD hasn't (yet) broken down my dad's matrilineal brick wall, although I now know that several women with unknown surnames from the late 1700s and all in South Carolina were someone all related.  Even more interesting are the zero GD matches that have their matrilineal MRCA in Norway.  You would think/hope with 26 zero GD matches for my dad I would've figured something out!  Good luck with your research!