Migration categories: Hungary vs. Kingdom of Hungary vs. Austria-Hungary

+8 votes
726 views

Hi all,

trying to figure out migration categories for Peter Hy and others. Inspired by Category:Lorraine, Emigrants to New France I created Category:Lorraine, Emigrants to Hungary

I was unsure what to use as AdminEntity as suggested at Space:Migration_Category_Structure. It occured to me that districts of the Kingdom might be a good idea (even though they migrated like crazy between Temes and Torontal in my perception). Then I thought about present day districts, like the Megye subcategories from Category:Magyarország. Then it occured to me that we should probably do "Kingdom of Hungary, Immigrants" just like there is the historic Category:Grand_Duchy_of_Baden,_Emigrants parallel to present day's Category:Baden-Württemberg,_Emigrants. Is that correct?

Bonus question: Category:Hungary,_Emigrants_to_United_States declares Austria-Hungary as country taking away the chance to use another hierarchy level below Hungary. Austria-Hungary 51 years leaving out the remaining 867 years Hungary was independent. Can we please graciously skip this short period to avoid duplicate categories and simply let it remain an independent country by itself?

WikiTree profile: Peter Hy
in Policy and Style by Florian Straub G2G6 Pilot (254k points)

After finding Duchy_of_Lorraine on Wikipedia it might be an idea to give that one a separate migration category below the HRE as well ...

(Vár)megye is "county", and in the 19th century, Hungary had 63 of them. It is generally sufficient to uniquely identify a location using "Place, County, Hungary", although there are a few exceptions where it's best to use a later, disambiguated name. (Vas county had two different places called Bánya, for example; these were later clarified as Őribánya and Bányácska.)

I don't do categorization, but I don't think a place category of "Austria-Hungary" would serve any useful purpose, really. I mean, I suppose it could exist, made up of everything in the "Austria" and "Hungary" categories, but what would be the point? The two halves of the monarchy were never combined, neither administratively nor any other way; the only thing they had in common was the identity of the guy wearing the crown. (But it was two very different crowns.)

Hi J. 
I agree with you that a place category "Austria-Hungary" not serve a lot of purpose. The Germany project has chosen to add the German Confederation, German Empire etc at the end of location data fields to identify locations as they were known in the day.

The migration categories are very different. In a formal structure the central European Kingdoms mostly appear at the lowest level of the formal migration category structure.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Migration_Category_Structure
The Kingdoms are being grouped together under broader collections like "Austria-Hungary Empire", "German Empire", "Russian Empire" etc.   

5 Answers

+6 votes

Hi Florian,

Some 18th and 19th Century Kingdoms have been defined as Administration Entities in the Wikitree migration category structure. Two examples are the Kingdom of Hanover and the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria.

I do not recommend creating AdminEntities for the subdivisions of the Kingdom of Hungary. In my opinion the migration categories would become too small to group together and find the families that have emigrated from the same region.  

by Steve Thomas G2G6 Pilot (157k points)
edited by Steve Thomas
You might have a point with "too small", so there would be enough levels to actually use Austria-Hungary
+5 votes

Hello Florian,

First off, the category Lorraine, Emigrants to Hungary you created has no profiles in it.  We do not create categories with no profiles anymore, it's a ''create as needed'' not blanket creation.  Also, that category has no time limit included in it.  The category structure for migrants to New France was established to show the various provinces of origin of migrants to what was then New France.  All the old provinces of France got themselves cut up and renamed with 1789 revolution in France and subsequent admin changes there.  By that time, New France was under English rule, so no longer was there a New France.

For Austria-Hungary (Wikipedia), the time range is limited.  There would be a before and after.

There are categories in existence for Hungary (needs CIB tweaked to add date range), Kingdom of Hungary (needs CIB with date range) and Austria-Hungary Political History which last is a misnomer to my mind.

Take a look at Montréal, Canada, Nouvelle-France as an example of how ''generational location names''  work, the CIB shows a timeline with ''previous / next''.  Click on the next to go to subsequent one and on and on.  This is the method we used here to show all the various changes in location names.  Admin entities of a higher level than city that are not current are grouped under Places in Canada, Historic

So to get back to migration categories, not sure where and when your man moved, but with those date ranges they are definitely on the historic side of things.

by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (770k points)

I have just looked at Montréal, Canada, Nouvelle-France . 

In my view this is a very attractive and useful category page. I like the way it connects the different eras and the combination of languages. 

+6 votes

Hello again Florian,
Your G2G question contains a lot of different "bonus questions".

Regarding "Migration categories: Hungary vs. Kingdom of Hungary vs. Austria-Hungary". My opinion is that it would be good to have another migration entity "Kingdom of Hungary". It would be a good sibling for "Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria". 

by Steve Thomas G2G6 Pilot (157k points)

I am not sure about the French side of the equation. I think that whoever is responsible for France should comment.

My understanding is that historic provinces (i.e. pre-1790) are being used to collate the historic migration categories.
For example Lorraine, Emigrants

+7 votes

Thanks for all your feedback. I've created Kingdom_of_Hungary,_Immigrants and Kingdom_of_Hungary,_Emigrants (and some subcategories).

I also cleaned up Hungary,_Immigrants as well as Hungary,_Emigrants and added a link to the "Kingdom of" categories.

Now it feels like this should be in line with the migration categories strategy. I also think that the Migrants from HRE AdminEntity to Kingdom of Hungary categories will provide a lot of insights.

Those of you, who want to make the TreeTM a better place: Feel free to help emptying Category:Hungarian_Immigrants_to_America , which is in line with absolutely no standard.

by Florian Straub G2G6 Pilot (254k points)

All emptied out wink

Actually the idea was to move them to the new categories rather then just removing the category :(
+6 votes

Okay, this category is all emptied out. The last four profiles on it have to be amended by a WikiTree Team Member wink

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Hungarian_Immigrants_to_America

by Maggie N. G2G Astronaut (1.4m points)
Wow. Thanks a lot for your help.
Actually the idea was to move them to the new categories rather then just removing the category :(
Be careful what you wish for
Fixed. All of those profiles now have "new" migration categories. It was interesting to see, how few US states were actually affected.

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