Regarding Notables and Citizenship

+5 votes
528 views
What determines the Notable Sticker for a particular Notable ? Country of residence, Country of achievements or Citizenship?    

My suggestion is use country of Citizenship. Let's use New Zealand for an example.  Until 1 Jan 1949 British born immigrants to NZ were British subjects, and so were NZ Indigenous Maori.  Only from 1949 were they NZ citizens.    Therefore my question is:  Shouldn't a Notable be defined by their country of birth rather than their country of achievement ? Or can we do both?  As an example let's consider NZ as one of many Commonwealth countries although the same analogy could be used in other British Commonwealth Countries.    Let us use a few examples :

1. Sir Edmund Hillary [[Hillary-33|Sir Edmund HIllary]]

achieved most of his notability in Nepal(and yes in other countries too I am not being specific here) but should he be classified as a Nepalese Notable or as a NZ Notable. Again my request, cant we classify by birth / citizenship rather than place of achievement.

2. Lydiah Koh famous NZ golfer - born in Seoul,  South Korea  and performed most of her achievements in every country of the world - shouldn't we classify by her citizenship / country of birth ? Can we please DEFINE where a notable classification should be categorised ie if born in NZ then NZ Notable if born in Korea then Korea notable despite achieving world wide. Right now there is no definitive criteria and everyone chooses their owncountry to attach to a profile but  forgive me if wrong but it seems this way. Can we make a plan.

Question:1. Should Notable status be defined by Citizenship Question 2: Should Notable status be defined by Country of Birth (which may be different to Citizenship)

Question 3. Should  we have a category for British Commonwealth countries prior to their independence (this may involve some more categories/stickers for each Commonwealth Country prior to their Independence (but not exclusive to).

For discussion.
in Policy and Style by Living Blomfield G2G6 Mach 2 (23.6k points)
retagged by Michael Cayley

5 Answers

+4 votes
As far as I am aware, an individual is classed as a Notable where they are born.  The {{Notables Sticker}} does not specify a country.  It only changes if someone puts a parameter in it i.e. {{Notables Sticker|England, Notables}}, but it does not display on the main profile page as an English Notable, just as a Notable.
by Ros Haywood G2G Astronaut (2.3m points)
I must disagree.  

Someone who gained notability in, for example, Australia, but who was born in, for example, Essex, England, emigrating with family at age 6 months, and living entire rest of life in Australia, is not an English Notable.
And there are plenty of examples in the England, Notables category of people born elsewhere but their notability is from England. Not to mention the British, Notables category is not based on place of birth either.

Also, adding a parameter to a sticker may not show on the sticker, but it does show on the profile page - albeit at the bottom with the rest of the categories.

Example, Australian Notable Shelia Florance has the sticker {{Notables Sticker|Australia, Notables in The Arts}} which simply shows in the sticker as 
Sheila (Florance) Balawaider is Notable.

However, at the bottom of her profile that shows up among the other categories as Australia, Actors | Australia, Notables in The Arts | Notables 

+6 votes
New Zealand was regularly issuing passports from 1915, although the first passports were issued prior to that and were individually signed by the Governor.

 From 1866 New Zealand was citizenship could be granted to non-British immigrants, under British law those citizens only had citizen status in New Zealand, and not in the rest of the Empire, if they moved to another part of the Empire they had to undergo naturalisation again. This was the situation until reform in 1914, NZ adopted that in part in 1923 and the rest in 1928.

 So there people who were identifiably New Zealand citizens in the 1800's and who were not British or Imperial citizens, logically anyone born in New Zealand in that time was both a British and a New Zealand citizen as evidenced that they could apply for a New Zealand passport from about 1900.
 Between 1948 and 1977 New Zealand passports stated New Zealand Citizen and British Subject.

 This question is based on a historical misconception.

The other problem is that notability can transcend national boundaries.
by Gary Burgess G2G6 Pilot (156k points)
edited by Gary Burgess
Gary when New Zealand was issuing passports from 1915 some English chose not to take up holding NZ Passports;  hence they retained their British citizenship . More to the point
There is the misconception, you see citizenship as a solo concept, international law recognises dual citizenship where the countries involved allow that , dual New Zealand and British citizenship was historically common, a "British" citizen from another part of the Empire automatically gained local citizenship simply by immigration, that of course is no longer the case.
+6 votes
Notables as a project does not specify how someone can categorize a Notable, but as a recommendation, I would consider primarily using the places where they are best known for their notability for the location type categories that you might place a Notable. However, I do know that some use their place of birth and some use their place of death. Others use the place they lived most of their life. Since there's no standard and Notables did not create those categories (typically the Country-type projects created them, or one of their team members), the usage of them has been and continues to be organic in nature. And there's no reason why a Notable has to be confined to one location. If you invented one thing in England, another in America, and another in China - they could be considered Notable for each of those areas. Even if they were born in Poland and died in Saudi Arabia, someone might consider that Notable as well as a marker of their origins and ends. So at the moment, all answers are relatively correct. However, the person who created the category may have left instructions on its usage, so it's always good to check that just in case their vision for it has some limitations that may either be reasonable (in which case we should try to follow them) or somewhat unreasonable (in which case we should contact them and discuss it directly with them).

But that's my line of thinking.
by Scott Fulkerson G2G Astronaut (1.6m points)
So there is no objections to marking Washington-11 as a British Notable then? If we follow the question askers premise then that is what we would need to do. After all the actions that made him first Notable were done when he was a British subject.

The main reason for the question was because a New Zealand Data Doctor corrected a {{Notables}} project box to the {{Notables Sticker}} and added the category New Zealand, Notables to the profile as the person in question learnt art in New Zealand and is famous only in New Zealand for New Zealand art. Only connection to another place is the place of birth. No Notability anywhere else.
There's no reason they cannot be both, but I can't make that judgment call as I really don't know that profile. Only those who are familiar with the profile and person can understand whether they are Notable in more than one physical location, much as whether or not they are Notable in more than one occupation, skillset, or otherwise. But they can definitely be considered Notable in more than one of a similar type of category.
Darren, {{Notables}} is the template of the Project, showing up on the profile as "... is notable. Join the Notable Project". This is only to be used when the Notables Project is Manager of the profile. When any other user or Project is managing the profile of a notable person, the {{Notables Sticker}} is to be used.
Jelena I know that. The profile that started this debate is not managed by the Notables project and the Data Doctor corrected the incorrectly added project box to a sticker. The question asker added the project box after another person put the sticker on the profile.
Scott, the profile I used as an example, (Washington-11) is George Washington, First president of the United States of America. No normal person would associate his Notability status with anything but the United States (and Virginia as a subset of course). Yet that is the implications of only choosing Notables categories by birth/citizenship would only make George Washington a British Notable only.
Since the categories we're primarily created by the country projects and not by Notables, we cannot enforce how they are used. The categories typically are meant to be a way for people to find profiles. So if by putting that profile into a specific category it helps locate it, then the category is working.
And I believe that George Washington is managed by the USP project, so they would have to agree with categories assigned to that profile.
So, are you saying there would be no objections to categorising George Washinton as an English, or British Notable, instead of an American one?
What I'm saying is that Notables does not and has no plans to monitor those categories. If someone we're to put him in as an Australian Notable then I doubt the team would notice it. But the project in this case who reviews that particular profile probably would. So it would be a question better directed towards them.
+5 votes
A notable person can be notable in several categories. There is only one sticker, which shows they are notable, but you can have them appear in multiple categories. It has been my experience that when someone is notable, everyone wants to claim associate with them, no matter how small it is.
by Jimmy Honey G2G6 Pilot (217k points)
+4 votes
This is I guess a bit tricky

For instance, today with Tina Turner - is she an American or Swiss notable.

Historic notables are very tricky if they are from central or Eastern Europe.  

There is a joke that your citizenship could change three to four times even if you never left your basement.  However, if you venture up, it could be even greater.
by Lloyd de Vere Hunt G2G6 Mach 5 (55.5k points)
As mentioned above, these categories were primarily raised as a part of the regional projects. So you would want to consult with them if you had questions. My "opinion" would be that her notability was primarily American, but if the Swiss felt that she extended that to their country as she lived there for some time and there were no significant objections, then you could add her there. I don't see the conflict here.

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