Who was the father of Lucie de Tregoz?

Question

Lucie is a real person, attested in primary documents as the wife of John le Strange, who died in 1269.  And the earliest secondary sources refer to Lucie as "Lucie, daughter of Robert de Tregoz."  

But which Robert?  Lucie is currently connected as the daughter of Robert de Tregoz and his wife Sibyl de Ewyas.

But while no primary documents have been found proving her parentage, the preponderance of most reliable secondary sources claim instead that she is the granddaughter, not daughter, of Robert and Sibyl, and that instead she is the daughter of Robert de Tregoz, junior, and his wife Julianne.

At the moment, Lucie's biographical write up contains nothing under "birth and parents.:  Instead, under Research Notes, I've created a section containing the assertions Lucie is the daughter of John and Sibyl, and another section with assertions she is the daughter of John and Julianne.  

Currently, the evidence for John and Julianne is stronger.  But before making any changes to Lucie's parents, I would appreciate thoughts and comments.  And certainly suggestions of additional resources, preferably primary sources, which I've not yet found!

Answer 1

The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol 12.1, p. 351 has John Lestrange III "said to have married Lucy, da of Robert Tregoz" citing Dodsworth MS, vol. 141, p. 128, and Palgrave, Kalendars and Inventories of the Exchequer, vol 1, p. 74. However these aren't much help in identifying which Robert Tregoz was her father.

The Dodsworth manuscripts aren't available in full-text online, but from a description, vol. 141, folio 128 is a Genealogy of the LeStrange of Hunstanton by Sir Henry Spelman.  The Palgrave source does confirm that Lucy was a daughter of Robert Tregoz but not which one.

However on chronological grounds, I think it is much more likely that she was the daughter of Robert Tregoz and Sibyl de Ewyas.  John LeStrange V, the grandson of John LeStrange III and Lucy, was born in about 1253/54, as he was said to be aged 22 or more on the death of his father, John LeStrange IV on or before 26 Feb 1275/76. (This is from The Complete Peerage, vol 12.1, pp. 351-352.  As we currently have on WikiTree this would give an estimated date of birth for John LeStrange IV of 1230 and for Lucy herself 1210.

When we look at The Complete Peerage, vol 12.2 under Tregoz, Robert de Tregoz and Sibyl de Ewyas were married 'possibly in 1198' and he died "some time before 29 Apr 1215" (p. 18) which would be the period when it is likely Lucy was born.

Their son Robert de Tregoz married Juliane de Cauntelo 'presumably before 1 Aug 1245 (p. 19) and even if it was long before 1245, it still makes it difficult to envision, a daughter born from that marriage who would have a grandson born about 1253.  Particularly as this Robert de Tregoz must also have been born in the 1198-1215 time period.  It's perhaps not impossible but very unlikely to have 4 generations in about 55 years.

Comments

Looking further Juliane de Cauntelo, was the dau of William de Cauntelo by Milicent, widow of Amauri de Montfort, Count of Evreux (The Complete Peerage, vol 12.2, p. 19-20). This Amauri de Montfort, exchanged Evreux for the Earldom of Gloucester, and is in The Complete Peerage, vol. 5, p. 693

He died before Nov 1213 (note m, has that his executors were named in Jan 1213/4) and Milicent married secondly William de Cauntelo by July 1215 or 1216. This would place Juliane de Cauntelo's birth as about 1215/6 at the very earliest and again highly unlikely to have Lucy > John LeStrange IV > John LeStrange V born in 1253/4.

Answer 2

Hamon LÉstrange's book is often pretty good for this family. He cites Nichols for the traditional answer https://archive.org/details/lestrangerecords00lestuoft/page/100/mode and Nichols seems to imply that there is a relevant IPM but I have not found it straight away.

Comments

According to The Complete Peerage, vol. 12.2, p. 20 (note b), Nichols is confusing two different Robert de Tregoz.  The Robert de Tregoz who was killed at the Battle of Eversham was the Lord of Tolleshunt Tregoz in Essex, not the same person as the Robert de Tregoz who married Juliane de Cauntelo.  The ipm Nichols mentions seems to be the ipm for the Robert de Tregoz who died at Eversham.

Just adding that currently WikiTree also has Robert de Tregoz as being killed at Eversham.  Not sure why we have not followed The Complete Peerage, which cites primary sources?