Stephen Sands, Quaker, and Richard Sandys of Downe, Kent

Question

I would love some help from those more experienced than myself in connecting immigrants to their places of origin (which I've done a little of) and in researching peerage. My basic issue is this: there's a widely-distributed set of Internet records that show Quaker immigrant [[Sands-139|Stephen Sands]] as the son of Col. [[Sands-137|Richard Sands / Sandys]] of Kent. Richard comes from a long line of Lancashire nobility through his father, and his mother's familiy (Bulkeley and Savage) is connected to noble families all over, including the Plantagent royal family. Problem is, I can't find any reliable sources, primary or secondary, that actually show Stephen as his son. 

Two questions, then:

1. Could someone apply a critical eye to Sands-139 to see if I've done a reasonable job of documenting what is and is not known?
2. Does anyone have any experience with this specific line that could help either identify the descendants of Richard Sands / Sandys or some reliable sources about Stephen Sands?

I appreciate the assistance, hopefully I've done enough work on Sands-139 that no one will have to do any elementary research that I've missed..

Comments

I have just been looking at the Meyrick family in Anglesey and I see that Owen Meyrick was a staunch opponent of the influence of the Bulkeley family on that island. Where are the Bulkeley's that you mention from?

See Meyrick-85

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Probably the same one, here's a blurb about Sir Richard (sorry about the formatting, I'm on mobile:

 heir to extensive estates in Anglesey, Caernarvonshire and Cheshire, Bulkeley increased his family's standing in Anglesey and was instrumental in obtaining a charter of incorporation for Beaumaris in 1562

 

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OK, I am currently updating the Meyricks!

Answer 1

Hi Doug

I hate to say that I am having problems with your profile. This is for a number of reasons. Sir Edwin Sandys 1561-1629) was the second son of Edwin Sandys, who had served as Archbishop of York, the second highest clergyman in the Church of England! Sir Edwin served as a member of Parliament in the English Parliament between 1589 and 1626, and it is very largely due to him that the Kingdom of Great Britain was not created in the reign of James I.

He had travelled on diplomatic missions across Europe and had been a regular correspondent to both Lord Burghley (William Cecil) [Lord Treasurer and Chief Spymaster for Queen Elizabeth], and to John Whitgift, Archbishop of Canterbury [Elizabeths' little black husband']

He was anti-Catholic and was, for a time, a commisioner for recusancy in Kent, meaning he was responsible in some part for fining and siezing property belonging to Roman Catholics who insisted on retaining their religious beliefs instead of what was by then the established faith. His father had been a Marian exile (that is to say he had been forced out of both his archbishopric and the country by Queen Mary because of his Protestant views and being anti-Roman Catholic). He helped set out the text and part-funded a book which criticized Presbyterianism, The Laws of the Ecclesiastical Polity None of these things seem set to engender a later generation of Quakers..

He married four times, his fourth in 1604 being Katherine or Catherine, the daughter of Sir Richard Bulkeley of Henblas Beaumaris and Baron Hill, Llanfaes, Ynys Mon (Anglesey in North Wales). She died in 1634.

 Sir Edwin was certainly a great promoter of the Virgnia Company and served as Treasurer - I have seen nothing to suggest that he actually went there!  Several members of the family were involved with the company.

According to A genealogical and heraldic history of the extinct and dormant baronetcies by J and J B Burke published in 1838, The History of Parliament (www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/sandys-sir-edwin-1561-1629)  and (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandys_baronets) and (www.encyclopediavirginia.org/sandys_sir_edwin_1561-1629) the following tree emerges:

 Edwin (I), Archbishop of York was married twice, first wife (Mary Sandys dau of William Sandys of Wadham) in Germany, one son (James) died in  1557.

Nine known children by second marriage - Cecily Wilford (c1537-1611/12)

  1 Sir Samuel, Knt, of Ombersley married Mercy Culpepper (c1586)

     1a  Margaret

     1b  John

     1c  Martin 

     1d  Sir Edwin Sandys, Kt (b. c. 1605 for disambiguation)

     plus about seven other known births

  2 Sir Edwin (II), Kt first married Margaret Eveleigh of Devonshire, d.1588

     2a  Margaret

second marriage (c1592) Ann Southcott d.1593 no known issue

third marriage (c. 1601) Elizabeth Nevinson of Eastry

     2b  Anne

fourth marriage (before 1605) Catherine Bulkeley of Beaumaris

     2c Henry

     2d William

     2e Edwin of Northbourne, Kent married Catherine Champneys, heiress of Hall  Place, Kent

        Colonel in the Parliamentary Army during the so-called English Civil War. Died at the Battle of Worcester.

              2e i Richard of Northbourne, MP and Knight married Mary Heyman

                   2e i 1 Richard of Northbourne, created baronet of Northbourne in 1684

                  married twice leaving two daughters as co-heirs including Priscilla

     2 a further nine live births including 

     2j  Richard, of Downe Hall, Kent married Hester Aucher of Bourne, Kent

         Colonel in the Parliamentary Army

              2j i Edwin of Downe Hall

                   2j i 1 Jordan, Captain, Royal Navy, of Downe Hall

                            married Deborah St Quintin

                         2j i 1a Henry Sandys of Downe Hall

                                    married Priscilla Sandys,

                                   dau of Sir Richard, Bt of Northbourne

                                2j i 1a A Richard

  3 Sir Miles, Bt of Wilberton married Elizabeth Cooke

      3a Sir Miles, Bt of Wilberton

      3b Robert Sandys

   In all these data, there was no mention of any Stephen. There was no mention of any emigration and given the number of Anglican clerics that were members of the family in different generations I would be amazed to discover any Quakers amongst them - but those statments are not definitive. It is entirely feasible that Richard, the first of Downe Hall, and his heirs - Edwin, Jordan and Henry may each or any of them have had further sons who never became heirs, but there is nothing I've seen to even hint at it. The Virginia company was wound up by the revocation of its charter in 1624, so why would the family members after 1658 feel the need to travel there?

Ironically, a certain William Penn, whose family had owned a manor st Ashington in Sussex, England were, by virtue of owning the 'living' of the parish church, entitled to appoint the vicar. William Penn himself inherited that manor and consequently was the appointee of a vicarage. Another irony is that the next village south was called Washington!

 

 

 

 

Comments

I share your skepticism. Were I building the Stephen Sands profile from scratch, I'd have never put in the connection. But as it's not mine, I wonder when / if I should change something as fundamental as the parents?

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Ask the profile manager. If they have the evidence then that's it. If not, then a note ought to be put on the profile that there is some doubt, but emphasising that the dount is no more proven than the link to the Sandys of Downe Hall.

Shame I don't live that way anymore. I used to call in to the two pubs in the midle of Downe village, the one had a regular folk music club and the other was just a really nice country pub. The parish records may have something to offer. This would either be the local archive of the London Borough of Bromley, in which jurisdiction Downe now is, or it will be the London Metropolitan Archive as the main archive for London, or it may be in Canterbury (the parish was a peculiar of Canterbury) or it may be in Maidstone (the repository for the diocese of Rochester, in which the parish nominally resided).

Charles Darwin lived in Downe too! At Downe House. The famous Battle of Britain RAF fighter station was next door (RAF Biggin Hill, or Biggin on the Bump as it was known colloquially). This was a high pateau that both Biggin and Downe stood upon on a spur of the North Downs and the Edge of the London basin. Downe itself derives its name from the Anglo-Saxon word Dun meaning high point or hill, the same root as we derive dune as in sand dune!

I shall stop now, since I appear to be rambling.

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Interesting that an Aucher married a Sandys.  Another Aucher married a Lovelace, and they were the grandparents of the Lovelace gateway immigrants, of Virginia and New York - who on their mother's side were great-grandchildren of Archbishop Sandys.

Is Orchard a variant of Aucher?

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Orchard is Orchard! It is a simple Anglo-Saxon name based on the Old English word for a fruit garden (actually for almost any sort of garden) written variously as ortgeard and orceard.

It is one of those common surnames that were related to where they lived (next to or near an orchard, or related to their work in said orchard.

In the nineteenth and twentieth century the largest number of orchards in any one area were either in Kent (the garden of England) or in the twin counties of Herefordshire and Worcestershire. The odd thing is that the name Orchard is not common, indeed quite rare, in all three.

The name is most common in the south-west; Wiltshire, Somerset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight, Dorset, Devon, Cornwall and Gloucestershire although as is the way through nineteenth and twentierth century migrations from the land to urban places, the numbers appearing in London, Bristol and Birmingham rose dramatically.

Many people have tried to link it to Orcheston and even Urquhart, but there is  no etymological reasoning behind it that stands up to scrutiny.

My own family are from Wiltshire, I was born in Wiltshire. We have a heavy connection with London after 1885, but prior to that we were in the Devizes area at least as far back as 1690 (based on the estimated birthdate of Michael Orchard who is named as the father in a baptismal register of the first really dateable child).

 

 

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Yes, lots of cross-pollination there: Richard married Hester, Margaret Sandys married Sir Anthony Aucher, Sir Anthony's sister Elizabeth Aucher married one Sir William Lovelace, and another Sir William Lovelace married the granddaughter of Edwyn Sandys, Archbishop of York. Hard to keep track with these nobles. (reference Virginia Mag. of History & Biography @ http://www.jstor.org/stable/4243817?seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents)

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Hi Doug

This may seem pedantic, but I have only found one noble in these notes. The Rt Hon. The Rt. Rev. Dr Edwin Sandys, DD, Lord Archbishop of York and Metropolitan of England (to give him his full title) was the only one ennobled. The others are knights or baronets, these latter being the step below their Lordships.

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Not pedantic at all. Where would you suggest corrections? Also, is there a generic word for "high born" that would better suit the meaning of "descended from knights, baronets, lords, and the like"? :)

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The EuroAristo project subscribes to Wikipedia's definitions of nobility and gentry, which are quite different from the ones used in the Middle Ages.

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I am sure that's right, but the titles in question were modern and not of the Middle Ages. I am sure that establishing such concepts across the whole of WikiTree will be fraught, since there will be differences between those in England and Scotland, let alone between Great Britain and across the Channel and the North Sea.

So I do understand why the project may adopt a definition that is not entirely in tune with my local understanding - but in England and Wales ennoblement has had significant legal impact over the centuries and is the bedrock of the entire class system that remains even after the end of the twentieth century.

Answer 2

HI Doug,

I had originally created Stephen's profile but had not added any sources at the time.  I just aded some detail that was provided by Eleanora Cowgill in her Cowgill History book.

I like how you set up the profiles with the different text styles and formats -- please feel free to adjust the detail I added to fit in the format you started.\

I will add some of the states descendants from her research.

Her book states her sources for that Sands line to be Paul T Millikin (1916-1981) who lived in Columbus, Ohio, LDS Utah and Burlington MM.

Thanks,

Meghan

Comments

Thanks, the certificate showing consent of the mother pretty well drives a stake through the heart of the theory, as Hester Aucher would not have had any association with the Lancashire meeting.

Answer 3

Hi Doug,

I believe that Stephen Sands ( my ancestor) was christened at St. Mary's in Lancaster, Lancashire 16 Jun 1658.  And that he was the son of Richard Sands and Alice Hunter who were married at St. Mary's 17 Apr 1654. I doubt that Hester Aucher Sands would have travelled to Lancashire from Kent to have a child. My suppositions are up for correction as well.

Comments

St. Mary's Parish records show the marriage of Richard Sands (son of William Sands) to Alice Hunter (dau to Randle Hunter). The same parish records Stephen Sands baptism which lists Richard and Alice as his parents. The interesting part is that Richard's father is William Sands. This could be the William whose father is Sir Edwin Sands.  The entry in the Genealogical Personal Memoirs of Mercer County, New Jersey, p. 642 notes that Stephen Sands came from a "wealthy parentage." This is quite a statement for the time. While there is no hard evidence that links Stephen Sands to the Sands of Esthwaite Hall, Hawkshead in Cumbria, England, it is plausible. More research is needed to find out the children of William Sands of this period.  By the way, to rule this out on the basis that Stephen was a Quaker would be wrong. This was a period of religious realignments and conversions. Converting to Quakerism had its consequences such as being shut out of a family.