Confirm Jochem Wouterszen-3's birth year and place

+5 votes
200 views
Where do I find the original source confirming Jochem Wouterszen van Weert was born in 1637 in Gouda, the Netherlands?

Gus Van_Weert-15
WikiTree profile: Jochem van Weert
asked in Genealogy Help by Gus Van Weert G2G2 (2.2k points)
retagged by Keith Hathaway

1 Answer

+1 vote

Here is a link to the (Familysearch) scans of Gouda records:

http://zoekakten.nl/plaatsen.php?id=ZH|0513|&id=ZH|0513|%23dd

answered by Jan Terink G2G6 Pilot (140k points)
Thanks, Jan, I already have searched the original DTB books for Gouda for the years 1636,1637 and 1638, after going through the search function of Streekarchief Midden-Holland: no Jochem Wouterszen (or variations thereof). So I am very interested in looking at 0513 / 23dd but have no clue what that means. Pls clarify. GUS

Gus,

The "0513 / 23dd" is just a part of the URL. If you open the link

http://zoekakten.nl/plaatsen.php?id=ZH|0513|&id=ZH|0513|%23dd

You get a page with links to Familysearch films of the original Gouda books. The possibly relevant links on that page are:

  Dopen 1622-1812; Trouwen 1626-1798; Lidmaten 1624-1780 [238 img] Luthers
  Dopen 1625-1662 [684 img] Gereformeerd
  Dopen 1625-1811; Trouwen 1625-1808; Lidmaten 1625-1704, 1747-1770 [177 img] Waalse Gemeente
  Dopen 1635-1672, 1701-1811; Trouwen 1635-1689, 1704-1812 index per film; Rooms Katholiek
 

Clicking a link takes you to the Familysearch film. These original documents are of course in 17th century handwriting!

Sorry, Jan, my first answer was not clear, obviously. I had already looked at the scans of the original Gouda DTB documents (in the 17th century handwriting) before posting my question. No luck.  As I said, where is the birth notation for Jochem Wouterszen? If you know where to find it, pls be more specific.

As a further check, I searched the Mid-Holland archives, which contain the transcribed Gouda records and can be machine searched. Still no Jochem Woutersen! GUS.
Gus,

The obvious answer would be he is not baptized in Gouda. Looking at the uncertainties in this profile I would not be surprised at all. So I wouldn't know where to find his baptism document.
Jan: Seems to be the obvious answer, but where there is smoke, there is fire... The date 1637 and the place Gouda must have an origin somewhere.

Anybody else with comments?
I also gave a look the other day and didn't find anything. My guess would be that someone somewhere assumed that "van Goede" was that city of Gouda but could refer to something else. Or perhaps his church records in the Netherlands exist in a small town near Gouda? Or maybe that refers to a location in New Netherlands and he's actually from Woert or maybe Schoonerwoert?

The Millennium File referred to in his profile says that he was born in Flatbush, which is weird because 1637 predates the New Netherland baptism records.
Carrie:  Thanks for help! Did your search include the Lutheran baptismal register of the Gouda congregation? On July 26, 1637 Jan Joachims(?) and Maritij Pietersz had a Joachim(?) baptized (image 10 of 238). They also had baptisms on April 1, 1635, June 15, 1636, May 16, 1640, Febr 16 1642 and May 31, 1643, maybe more. My problem is not to be certain of my transcipt of the last name Joachim, it looks more like Jorgims(z).That name does not make much sense to me... Could you have a look?

Even if the name could be read as Joachim, that still leaves the challenge of  Wouterszen, or van Weert. Where could Jochem have acquired these as a last name? So, we are reaching to place Jochem in Gouda. Your suggestion to look in adjacent villages or towns makes sense if we can validate the current information : "Gouda" and "1637".
Well the way that Dutch names work, Jochem's patronym (not so much a last name) is Wouterszen. That means that his father's name is Wouter. You're looking for a Jochem being baptised by a father named Wouter.

van Woert and van Goede were like adjectives which ended up becoming surnames, usually closer to the 18th century.

No, I didn't bother with the Lutheran book because he appears in the DRC book in New Netherlands where there was a Luthern church available about the same time.
Carrie: Re patronyms, if life was only that simple! My farthest known ancestor was named Nicolaas Johannes. He was born around 1590, likely in Dinther, N.B. His second child was a male: baptized 28-06-1619 in Dinther as Johannes Claassen van Weert, Every descendant from him has been called van Weert at birth. I'll be glad to send you the parenteel.

The Jan Joachims I make reference to above has been transcribed as Jochims in the Mid-Holland "genealogie bank". Those are the experts, so I will go with them. He had his son baptized as Jochim, not Jan(soon, sen or sz). If you look at the two Wouter Wouters I created a few days ago, same story, two  fathers with the surname Wouters called their sons Wouter after their last name, in 1637, in Woerden. By the way, our Jochem Wouterszen is called Jan Wouters on the passenger manifest of the ship that brought him to New Amsterdam. He would call himself  Jan Wouters van Woerd(en?).

Well of course there are exceptions; I was keeping it simple because there appeared to be a misunderstanding.

The Wouter Wouterse wouldn't be naming their sons after their surname; they're naming their sons after their fathers, which is very traditional. They are Wouter, son of Wouter, baptizing a child named Wouter. Very, very rarely a family will treat a grandfather's name as their patronymic, at least early on when surnames were uncommon.

Do you mean this Jan Wouterse? http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/shbrk.html I wasn't convinced that was Jochem as Jan isn't really used in place of Jochem? I could be wrong though. Every record I found for this Jochem used the name Jochem.

Thanks again, Carrie, for the free education. Do we agree my mistake was to give the two Wouter's the name Wouters as a last name. One's father was a Jacob, the other had a Jan. Should I have entered these two in WikiTree as Wouter Jacobsz and Wouter Jansen, or variations thereof re the last names? The baptismal register only reports that the boy's (first) name was Wouter, in both cases. Leaving the picking of last names to rookies like me is a sure recipe for chaos, I suspect.

I agree with you that the Dutch record keepers would not mix up Jan with Jacob. However, I did! The passenger I was referring to is a Jacob Wouters, 3rd passenger listed for "De Trouw"s second voyage, lv Adam 24/03/1662 and arriving  at New A'dam 12/05/1662. He is reportedly from A'dam, but had he come from Woerden, I still think he could have referred to himself as Jacob Woutersz van Woerden.

Speculation that Jochem Wouterszen van W**rt may have come from a town close to Gouda brought me to the Woerden archives (and in turn the two Wouter Wouters's). Van Woerd as a last name for Jochem makes more sense than van Weert, the town of Weert being far away in Limburg and Roman Catholic. Look forward to your comment(s).

Ahhh, I see. So it's like this first entry that you're talking about https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-31147-10761-20?cc=2037907&wc=SMM5-7M7:1292923701,345847901,347890002

Wouter, son of Jacop Wouters opt ?antpadt. Yes in that case, if I knew nothing about that family, I would assume that Wouter's LNAB would be Jacopszen, since that would be the traditional way at that time.

 

Carrie: I agree with you on the traditional way, for the first (oldest) son. The second son was often named after the maternal grandfather, like me ( but now using first names). Not hard though to find a Wouter Wouters, just google that name on Stamboomzoeker.nl and well over 100 pop up. The real interesting example, however, is found on genver.nl, DTB, Gouda, M99Q-KQ4 diversen (last of the list), Ned. Hervormd Church attestaties, image 16 out of 366, under a notation dated 11 June 1665: Jocchum Jocchumsen, "soldier in the company of Capteijn VIERIJ, domiciled on the ??  ?? (i.e. in Gouda), moved to Haarlem (in the margin: confirmed the 18 June, 1665). How long was this Jocchum in Gouda? The notation does not mention a wife, but it does for the following entry, also a soldier moving to Haarlem. So we may conclude Jocchum was a J.M. or a widower, but not married at that moment.

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