Policy proposal: all languages are welcome

Question

This policy change proposal is to insert the following draft paragraph at the end of the preamble to Help:Discussion Rules, before rule 1:

Nothing in these rules restricts the language in which posts on G2G or other official WikiTree forums, profile comments, and texts for biographies are written. WikiTree is international, and all languages are welcome. In cases where questions arise about whether the discussion rules or other WikiTree standards have been satisfied, advice from other native speakers of the language of the post or comment, in conjunction with automatic translation, may be used to assist analysis.

The proposal arises out of a G2G discussion initiated by Oliver Stegen. It was noted there that Jamie Nelson has indicated in G2G comments (see 1, 2 and 3) that languages other than English are allowed, provided the Honor Code is followed. The aim of the current proposal is to formalise that permission as policy on a Help page, so as to promote internationalism and multilingual diversity, consistent with WikiTree's mission of growing "an accurate single family tree that connects us all and is freely accessible to us all".

It might be argued that use of multiple languages could make it harder to verify whether the Honor Code and discussion rules have been followed. The last sentence of the proposed new Help page paragraph above offers two ways to overcome this: expert advice, supported by automatic translation. As Valerie Penner has pointed out, there already may not be a problem in practice, as Mentors speaking multiple languages can be available.

Please vote up the first answer if you support the proposal, and the second if you disagree with it. Please do not downvote, as doing so would distort the count. Discussion in the form of comments or additional answers is welcome.

Comments

Thank you, Jim, for wording and initiating this policy change proposal much better than I could have done.

Making the use of every and any language explicitly allowed anywhere on WikiTree will dispel the doubts of non-English speakers, whether they may use the language which they are most comfortable with also outside of biographies. It is to be expected that including the proposed addition in the help pages will lead to an increased acceptance of WikiTree beyond the English-speaking world.

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It's been two weeks since the last discussion on this proposal. The vote at present is 49 in favour and 9 against. As instructed at Finalizing Rules, I am now asking if the discussion can be closed.

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I second Jim's motion to close this discussion.

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Here is the email I sent on 6 March 2024 at the time of my last comment above:

Dear WikiTree Team,

It is now two weeks since the last discussion on the policy proposal at

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1706224/policy-proposal-all-languages-are-welcome

I have requested closure in a comment on the main question there. At present there are 49 votes in favour of the proposal and 9 against. This demonstrates significant support for the proposal, which I believe presents a simple but effective opportunity for WikiTree to confirm its commitment to developing a worldwide international tree and encouraging participation by native speakers of any language.

As instructed in the Finalizing Rules section of Help:Developing New Rules, I am now emailing you to draw attention to the closure request.

So far I have not heard back on my previous request for closure of an earlier proposal

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1703687/policy-proposal-seeking-guidance-sharing-information-notable

as emailed to you on 27 February. I would be grateful in due course to receive acknowledgement of both that request and the current one, as confirmation that they are being considered. I understand that these are complicated matters which take effort to determine, but rough estimates of the timeframes within which resolution one way or another may be expected would be much appreciated.

I then received a response to the earlier proposal, which was about sharing information on non-notable living people. I still hope also to receive one for the current "all languages are welcome" proposal.

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In the absence of any dissent then your policy change has been accepted. The discussion rules should be changed.
I can do that tomorrow.

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Thank you for the support, Steve. However, if my understanding is correct, only the WikiTree Team can edit Help pages.

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I don't see the need for this rule, or why deciding on it should be a high priority.

The team is stretched particularly thin right now and there are other high priorities. As one small example, yesterday one of our servers crashed. The causes for it require policy changes.

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Thank you Chris for letting us know that the Team is aware of the proposal.

I do understand that there are multiple priorities. But it would be valuable to provide explicit assurance in the official Help pages, either as formulated above or otherwise, that non-English-speakers and their languages are welcome as a crucial part of the vision for one world tree.

Answer 1

Vote this answer up if you support the proposal.

Comments

I agree with the proposed changes, but considering our aim is to enhance the accessibility and user experience of our diverse audience, could we not implement a language switching extension for Wikitree?

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Woehoe Jim, ik ben zo blij en trots op jou en Oliver voor het plaatsen van dit voorstel.
Nu hopen dat er ook bij de groep van de mediatoren, Nederlandstaligen leden mogen aansluiten. Zodat onze manier van communiceren ook echt begrepen wordt, immers cultuur is meer dan taal alleen.

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Met dien verstande dat mijns inziens in

"In cases where questions arise about whether the discussion rules or other WikiTree standards have been satisfied, advice from other native speakers of the language of the post or comment, in conjunction with automatic translation, may be used to assist analysis."  may be used vervangen dient te worden door must be used. "May" is te vrijblijvend, laat ruimte voor wantrouwen aangaande juiste interpretatie van vreemde taal en cultuur.

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Wat weerhoudt Nederlandstalige mensen ervan mentor en leider te zijn. Ik heb begrepen dat dit de groep mensen is die de Bemiddelaars vormen.

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Please see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Mediators

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We did have Dutch speaking mentors and leaders, but there was an altercation with Wikitree management and we lost them (a real shame, they were active and very valuable). Sorry, I don't know the details (I keep far away from policies and politics).

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Goedendag Margreet,

Ik ben blij dat dit gesprek plaatsvindt; zonder zou een belangrijke bron ontbreken. Terwijl vertaalhulpmiddelen verbeteren (met name AI), verwelkom ik de kans om profielen uit andere culturele ervaringen te lezen. Ik heb tot nu toe niet veel Nederlands in mijn familiegeschiedenis, maar ik ben nog steeds aan het verkennen.

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Wat weerhoudt andere leden van het Nederland Project ervan om mentor te worden. Wat houdt de Nederlandstalige leden tegen om projectleider te worden? Is het zo dat niemand die stap wil zetten?

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Wanting to be a Leader is not the only criterion.

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Mocht je vragen hebben Jimmy, dan weet je aan wie je ze mag stellen. Altijd bereid om te helpen.

Answer 2

Vote this answer up if you disagree with the proposal.

Comments

Kei te pooti kao ahau mo tenei taapiri. E rua nga take matua.

1. Ko te take tuatahi ko nga reo katoa kua whakaaetia kia whakamahia. Ko tenei tono karekau he taapiri atu engari ko te whakatakoto i te ture ki etahi atu waahi.
2. Ko te take tuarua ahakoa ka puta tenei tono ka noho tonu nga tangata e kii ana he "Ingarihi" anake a WikiTree.

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This is what I wrote in English to translate. It is not translated back the same.

I am voting no on this addition. There are two main reasons. 

The first reason is that any and all languages are already allowed to be used. This proposal does not add anything more except put the rule in more places.

The second reason is even if this proposal goes through there will still be people who assume WikiTree is "English" only. 

 

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Blij dat je uiteen zet waarom je het oneens bent met het voorstel! Jammer dat de eerdere tegenstemmers dat achterwege gelaten hebben.

Het bij onenigheid raadplegen van mensen die de betreffende taal als moedertaal hebben is een noodzakelijke toevoeging aan de regelgeving. Daardoor kunnen ook cultuurverschillen meegewogen worden.

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Glad you explained why you disagree with the proposal! It's a pity that the previous opponents omitted this.

In case of disagreement, consulting people whose native language is the language in question is a necessary addition to the regulations. This means that cultural differences can also be taken into account.

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I think your two objections cancel each other, Darren.

At present the permission to use any language is not a WikiTree rule, only an informal statement. If the proposal is approved, then people who assume that WikiTree is English-only will be able to be referred to official policy in the form of the new Help page paragraph, demonstrating to them that their assumption is incorrect.

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Kia ora, kei te kī koe kei te kore te whakamāori i te tika, he aha te taputapu e whai ana koe? He tino whakapono au ka āwhina te AI ki te whakapai ake i ngā whakamāoritanga. Ahakoa me tuhituhi te profaile i ngā reo e rua, he pai ki te whiwhi i te āheitanga ki te kōwhiri ko te reo e kitea ai. Te hiahia au ki te whai i ōku kōpaki katoa, ā, ki te hono ki tētahi profaile i tētahi reo, ka rongo ahau i ō rātou kōrero, kia mārama, ā, ka hiahia kia kaha rātou ki te pānui i aku whakapuaki. Ka taea e koe te whakakī i tēnei mōhio?

Hello, when you say it doesn't translate correctly, what tool are you using? I believe AI could help in making translations more accurate. Even if the profile must be written in both languages, it would be nice to have the option to choose which language to view it in. I want to follow my roots wherever they may lead, and if I connect to a profile in another language, I would be interested in understanding what they have to say, just as I want them to be able to read what I post.

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Darren,
Thankyou for your comment. I agree that the policy change by itself will not change the world. However I believe it is an important step in the right direction.

I am supporting the proposed change. If it is approved, then it does help as a standard to highlight the gap between Wikitree as it is today and the multilingual ideal.

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This is what I got as a translation from copying the Māori you wrote. 

Hi, you are saying that the translation is not correct, what device are you using? I strongly believe that AI will help improve translations. Although the profile must be written in two languages, it is good to have the ability to choose the language in which it is displayed. I want to have all my folders and to connect to a profile in a language, I can hear their words, to be clear, and they want to be able to read my expressions. Can you fill in this information?

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What did you use to translate it?

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Why are you guys discussing how correct translators are? There are trees waiting to be built, research to be made! 

If I would come across say a Korean post / profile I would shrug and move on, let the experts in the language/research hash it out amongst themselves. I don’t see a reason to vote against this. But maybe that’s just me.

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I'm discussing it, well because it's a community chat. The discussion was not about translators (people), but translations. Second, I did not vote against it.

You may skip something when you see it in another language, but I want to know what it says and learn from it.

Last, I don't want to build trees or do research for the sake of getting it done. I want to enjoy the experience and learn. I'm a history buff and do it as much for the history as the genealogy. It is important to me, no matter the language.

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Hokay well I wasn’t talking about translators (people) but the tools. Maybe I used the wrong terminology because English is not my first language.

I also did not mean to aim my comment at you per se, but everyone commenting in this thread. Maybe I did it wrong because I hit reply on the last comment instead of the first, who stated they voted against the proposal. I find the G2G setup confusing.

But thanks for reminding me why one might be better off keeping out of discussions on G2G especially if English isn’t one’s first language.

Just for fun here’s an AI’s take on my post:

The post questions the necessity of discussing the accuracy of translators, suggesting that there are more important tasks like building family trees and conducting research. The use of winking emojis could indicate a playful or sarcastic tone. The author mentions they would typically ignore content in languages they don't understand and leave it to experts to handle, acknowledging that their approach might not be universal.

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Thank you, Antonia, for the clarification, and no, I don't want you to stay off the G2G forum. It is a discussion board.

Answer 3

In the absence of strong dissension, I support that Wikitree adopts Jim's Proposal.
As a small player in Wikitree, I am asking myself what more can anyone do to change policy as Jim has proposed?

Comments

OK. I will change the policy document tomorrow. Obviously it is far easier to make a mistake then ask for forgiveness -  better than asking for approval via G2G.