Anneke Jans' ancestry is bad [closed]

+16 votes
1.0k views

It's not clear what kind of merging has gone on but Anneke's first husband is also her uncle. http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Jans-49&person2_name=Janssoon-1

https://www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/bios/j/anjans.html

I also doubt that she had any relation to the Ryckmans who were not Norwegian? https://www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/bios/r/joryckman.html

WikiTree profile: Anneke Jans
closed with the note: Anneke Jans Ancestry corrected :)
in Genealogy Help by Carrie Quackenbush G2G6 Mach 7 (73.4k points)
closed by Bea Wijma
So much material and validation (Bogardus alone!) and yet so much enigma and mystery ... am glad that I do not have to do the final editing of this profile ...
Haha, well shes my direct ancestor so I'm kind of invested. The new gedcom export revealed just how weird her current ancestry is.
Hi Carrie,

My name is Teresa. My Great grandmother was Florence Quackenbush. I have been working on this daily for about a month and a half. Here are two facts I know for sure. 1. My family history written on stationary from the 1800's. It begins: Pedigree of the Quackenbush family heirs of Anneke Jans estate. 2. That in the mid 1990's my grandmother received an inheritance from someone in the Royal family. She has passed and she did not make a copy of the check.

I have traced everyone in my family tree back to Anneke Jans and I have seen the video of Prince of the Netherlands William Alexander and Princess Maxima 2009 visit to Albany NY where he talks about his ancestors and the West India Trade Company.

God bless,

Teresa
Teresa - I also have Quackenbush ancestors, and would love to see the documentation you referred to in the comment above. Are they available online? Or could you send me scans?

Thanks.
Oddly this came up when I was having a big problem and it involves a Janz or Jans too - I was trying to connect up this family to the Alber Andriesson Bradt line who was a direct ancestor and these were a side family - different one of his ofspring was their grandfather so I found the connection but there is a disputed wife situation and I have sources for both - and it has Lutherans - Loonenburgh Lutherans no less - so if anyone remembers all this stuff here - was there any Geesie Jans or Janz that was related - I am not seeing a connection on the profile or free space page but perhaps one of you remembers something about another Jans line that was maybe a bit later in the Beverwyck area and Lutherans too
I am currently working on a project with my daughter and came upon records that prove the pedigree of my great, great grandmother, Lettie Jones House is heir to the estate of Anneke Jans Borgardus and that she was the daughter of Wolfer tWebber, the fourth King of Holland. I just was curious and did a Google Search and got here. These are made up with lawyers and apparently she received pedigree and settlement. Does anyone need/want this information?

Wolfert Webber, the fourth King of Holland

Holland? No country named Holland, so no king. Holland is by foreigners erroneously used as synonym for the Netherlands (Nederland). But even when interpreted as "Fourth King of the Netherlands" it is nonsense. At the time the area was "Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden" (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands).

Not before 1815 the Netherlands was a kingdom. Only by now we have the foruth king: Willem Alexander.

Be careful with these kinds of ancestral claims. Pretty much everybody now knows that we should not trust an exiled Nigerian prince who sends us email asking for help claiming a fortune. However, we also should be wary of people who offer to help us reconstruct our own European noble lineage so we can have bragging rights and display a coat of arms -- those folks are much smoother than the Nigerian scammers, but they are also scammers.
Thank you but these are actual stamped court documents from Saratoga Courts in NY. I found them after a family member passed. Just wondered if they were if any interest to anyone.

Hi Amy, 

on this page you will find an extensive study of Anneke Jans: Romanticized story-Webber tale-about Parents-Objects

Well, won't hurt to have a look. And if they prove we had another king... I'm up for it! angel

I would very much like to have a copy of those docs for my files, Amy.

Are you able to send them to me, or are they available somewhere for me to download?

Thanks.

Dawn
P.S. And if you are offering the original documents, I would happily accept them, treasure them, and take good care of them.

2 Answers

+7 votes
 
Best answer

Here's the 1623 marriage bann:

inschrijvingsdatum:

01-04-1623

naam bruidegom:

Jansz, Roelof

naam bruid:

Jans, Anna

bronverwijzing:

DTB 427, p.477

opmerkingen:

Huwelijksintekeningen van de KERK.

Archief van de Burgerlijke Stand: doop-, trouw- en begraafboeken van Amsterdam (retroacta van de Burgerlijke Stand)
Ondertrouwregister: NL-SAA-26367892

And the image (right page, top entry):

image"Netherlands, Noord-Holland Province, Church Records, 1523-1948," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-31149-25962-54?cc=2037985&wc=SM9S-K6J:1293193204,382015502,382300801 : accessed 23 September 2015), Nederlands Hervormde > Amsterdam > Huwelijksaangiften, Trouwen 1620-1623 > image 541 of 545; Nederlands Rijksarchiefdienst, Den Haag (Netherlands National Archives, The Hague).

by Jan Terink G2G6 Pilot (208k points)
selected by Astrid Spaargaren
He might still be her uncle ... happened quite often in those days ...
I would believe a bad merge before I believed incest. :)

Also they both have vans in the agreement, but the writing is so very bad.
Nice lead............ still reading at page 72 now......... http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?/en/items/KONB04:788J30/&p=1&i=2&t=10&st=Nieuw%20Amsterdam&sc=%28subject%20all%20%28Nieuw%20%20AND%20Amsterdam%29%29%20AND%20%28isPartOf%20any%20%22KONB04%22%20%29/ Don t know source is worthful but as a lead it is. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Dutch-Colonies/2005-09/1126132346 I haven t read all at this threat. Mabey you all know about this Annetje Jans' farm. :) If so I m sorry I added this.Lots about her first husband. Am at second now........
Okay. I didn t read all here....... but Houston we have a problem. The Roelof Janz is defo not from Island in this book. I m not sure of trust at this source. But it s obvious we re having a mix here. Dutch Roots we have a big challenge here. Roelof Janz is dutch and not from Island. I m ready to find proof for that. :) Blame Phillip he got me into the New-Netherlands and New-Holland stuff. Been reading anything I can get hold on last days.

Happy Treekend all!

Well we talked quite a bit about it in the thread, including Swedish articles written about Roelof, but the strongest authority of the New Netherlands before today's New Netherland Institute translators, A. J. F. van Laer http://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/history-and-heritage/dutch_americans/arnold-john-ferdinand-a-j-f-van-laer/ felt that he was treated as an "outsider", or someone not from the Netherlands, in his translations of the letters of the van Rensselaer's. http://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/research/online-publications/van-rensselaer-bowier-manuscripts/ 

Anneke herself was definitely Nordic.

Hi Carrie,

Thanks and think it's solved and fine now, added a part to his Bio about this issue + the image from the book and the transcription from the other source Astrid had found , so anyway now it's clear there are differences of opinion of/ doubts about his place of Birth and guess until someone finds an actual Birth record, regest, deed or other record  for him, that makes it very clear and without doubt where he was actually born , we are covered both ways now :P
Marriage between uncle and niece did take place amongst Sephardic Jews; and such marriages even took place in secret amongst Sephardic Jews who had emigrated from Portugal to the Netherlands. But amongst christians such marriages did not take place, at least, were not supposed to. In a christian country such as the Netherlands, a liaison between an uncle and a niece could hardly have been publically announced and officially blest with marriage: such a thing was considered immoral by the Church. Marriage between first cousins is another story: such marriages were not considered immoral per se by christians; they often took place, and where forbidden by Church or State law, one could be dispensed from the law.
Thank you Albertus :) Already added the Dutch Law (Gelderland) and indeed I agree about the marriage between an uncle and a niece, it is not something we see a lot in the Christian church marriages (at least I didn't see any of these ) . Marriages between first cousins indeed were pretty common ..many of those and even in my own family (my Brickwall was a Brickwall for many years, because it was such a marriage and nobody ever thought of this possibility ( we all were just thinking to modern ;) )
+7 votes

Dutch Law (Gelderland) those days (about marriages of people who were related in some degree)

At the " Echtordnung ordinance on the marriages off " 26 May 1597 by governor Chancellor and councils issued by Gelderland , alongside enforcement of before provisions also the marriage between first cousins was not allowed/forbidden.
(but they could ask for an exemption though, so they had to ask for permission for these kind of marriages, so there was a law but it was more a law on paper, because many cousins and otherwise related, people  still got married or got married already at another place while this procedure (so if it was alowed) still had to take place)
So this ordinance , was re- enacted in 1627 and 1658 (they kept trying ;) ) , and was on October 9, 1660 replaced by (again) a new one in which not only the marriage between first cousins (Art. X) , but also different degrees of relationship are listed , between which a wedding was forbidden , including the marriage of a man with the widow of his brother or sister of his deceased wife (art. XV) , a man with the widow of his brother descendants, or sisters (Art. XVI) and a man with the daughter of his deceased wife's sister (Art. XVII)  So in Holland they kept trying to prevent these marriages , but many marriages still took place and were alowed (, ''money marrying money'' so with cousins for example to keep the money, goods/ houses/castles in the family of course,) 

So like Philip says it very well could be they were somehow related , uncle and cousin even, those days more (for us and nowadays) very strange things happened , but people back than didn't seem to bother as much as we do now , because it happened all the time

Also tried to decipher the marriage record ;) , to see if maybe the parents of both were mentioned and where they were born etc.:

I guess (a really wild wild guess for some (read most) of it of course with this handwriting :P ) and with the help of the Paleografy alphabet  Jan provided, by the way the M is missing ? )  is that it says/ mentiones  (something like) : 

The herefore mentioned  Roeloff Janssoon of (could be Marstreant (but many other things to me , like Marstreaul or Mentreaul ?) than occupation or ?? (no idea, and can't make anything out of it)  age 21 years , (geen ouders hebbend(e)? has no parent(s ?) than a stricked word, so maybe started over here : Assisted by Jan Gerritsz his  ? (zijn ?) living at the (woont bij de) St Thonispoort (?) and (en) Anna Jans of Vleckeroy bbe(maybe short for afkomstig van?) Norwegy age 18 years, assisted by (geassisteerd met) Trijn roeloffs her (haar ?) mother (moeder) (woont als voorzegt ? lives as mentioned before? so same adres?)

Well that's all I can make of it , and it doesn't mention they are uncle and niece or that Trijn Roeloffs is his sister, so we need to do some more research I guess , and check what and if something is wrong with the lineage/ connections  by comparing a few genealogies, as much info as we can get I guess eeh ;)

by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (276k points)
edited by Bea Wijma
Hahaha I know Astrid and it's ok , well I'm going to solve this, it's a ''minor'' issue compared to the major problems we had, but added a part about this dispute/ his place of Birth to his Bio now  :)
Bea love you. I will agree till I find different again. Sweet dreams. :) Don t take me rebbeling wrong. :D  I like to dig that s all. <3

I m a searcher......... Wrong or right........ :)  Happy I m that way an add. :D
Sweet dreams Bea & Astrid ... (we should all be in bed by now and not burning the late night candles ...:-) ...

Why are we taking the word of Ruth Putnam, 19th century author, over experts like A. J. F. van Laer, a Dutch born scholar who actually translated the New Netherland documents for his entire life, and other long time researchers of the family, like William Brower Bogardus, author of "Dear Cousin...", and George Olin Zabriskie, author of "Anneke Jans in Fact and Fiction", published in the NYGBR in 1973 and still respected today http://brouwergenealogy.blogspot.com/2012/09/anneke-jans-in-fact-and-fiction.html

None of the Dutch could spell Maasland right, not even the well educated van Rensselaers? Roeloff and Anneke were Lutheran? It's also important to remember that Anneke's mother was also "van Maesterland", according to the Van Rensselaer Bower Manuscripts and records of Albany.

If proof can be found that he was actually from the Netherlands, then please change things, but current research believes that he was from Scandinavia.

http://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/9/9f/Quackenbush-118_Sandbox-4.jpg

Hi Carrie,

We of course are not ''taking '' her word over van Laers and others word, or vice versa, it's just something we should mention I believe, because we ourselves as well have noticed and mentioned this,(his place of Birth) before. But I guess because of the image it looked like we took her word over van Laers and others, so I have now adjusted some of it again and with just a link to the image of the Putnam book page, guess and hope this is better ? ;)
Took your advice Philip (time to go to bed ) and thanks :)
Looks great, Bea.
Thank you Carrie , happy when you are , thanks to you this finally was sorted out , so you really deserve to be happy with the final result. Adjusted some and the Geographical is working now as well (so even with the other info mentioned in the place field ) ;)
:D I stay out of this discussion lol till I have more sources. I keep believing things are just not so right. :)

 

I love the tomato tomato of Phillip :D

I will add the cumcumber and the salat as I m able too
I belonged to Dear Cousin for a while. William Bogardus was relentless in his search for accuracy.

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