Anneke Jans' ancestry is bad [closed]

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Anneke Jans' ancestry is bad [closed]

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Here's the 1623 marriage bann:

inschrijvingsdatum:

01-04-1623

naam bruidegom:

Jansz, Roelof

naam bruid:

Jans, Anna

bronverwijzing:

DTB 427, p.477

opmerkingen:

Huwelijksintekeningen van de KERK.

Archief van de Burgerlijke Stand: doop-, trouw- en begraafboeken van Amsterdam (retroacta van de Burgerlijke Stand)
Ondertrouwregister: NL-SAA-26367892

And the image (right page, top entry):

"Netherlands, Noord-Holland Province, Church Records, 1523-1948," images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-31149-25962-54?cc=2037985&wc=SM9S-K6J:1293193204,382015502,382300801 : accessed 23 September 2015), Nederlands Hervormde > Amsterdam > Huwelijksaangiften, Trouwen 1620-1623 > image 541 of 545; Nederlands Rijksarchiefdienst, Den Haag (Netherlands National Archives, The Hague).

answered Sep 23, 2015 by Living Terink G2G6 Pilot (298k points)
selected Nov 1, 2015 by Astrid Spaargaren

Marriage between uncle and niece did take place amongst Sephardic Jews; and such marriages even took place in secret amongst Sephardic Jews who had emigrated from Portugal to the Netherlands. But amongst christians such marriages did not take place, at least, were not supposed to. In a christian country such as the Netherlands, a liaison between an uncle and a niece could hardly have been publically announced and officially blest with marriage: such a thing was considered immoral by the Church. Marriage between first cousins is another story: such marriages were not considered immoral per se by christians; they often took place, and where forbidden by Church or State law, one could be dispensed from the law.

commented Nov 8, 2015 by Albertus Robert Casimir Jung G2G6 Mach 1 (11.1k points)
edited Nov 8, 2015 by Albertus Robert Casimir Jung

Answer 1 · 2015-09-23T22:02:32+0000

Dutch Law (Gelderland) those days (about marriages of people who were related in some degree)

At the " Echtordnung ordinance on the marriages off " 26 May 1597 by governor Chancellor and councils issued by Gelderland , alongside enforcement of before provisions also the marriage between first cousins was not allowed/forbidden.
(but they could ask for an exemption though, so they had to ask for permission for these kind of marriages, so there was a law but it was more a law on paper, because many cousins and otherwise related, people still got married or got married already at another place while this procedure (so if it was alowed) still had to take place)
So this ordinance , was re- enacted in 1627 and 1658 (they kept trying ;) ) , and was on October 9, 1660 replaced by (again) a new one in which not only the marriage between first cousins (Art. X) , but also different degrees of relationship are listed , between which a wedding was forbidden , including the marriage of a man with the widow of his brother or sister of his deceased wife (art. XV) , a man with the widow of his brother descendants, or sisters (Art. XVI) and a man with the daughter of his deceased wife's sister (Art. XVII) So in Holland they kept trying to prevent these marriages , but many marriages still took place and were alowed (, ''money marrying money'' so with cousins for example to keep the money, goods/ houses/castles in the family of course,)

So like Philip says it very well could be they were somehow related , uncle and cousin even, those days more (for us and nowadays) very strange things happened , but people back than didn't seem to bother as much as we do now , because it happened all the time

Also tried to decipher the marriage record ;) , to see if maybe the parents of both were mentioned and where they were born etc.:

I guess (a really wild wild guess for some (read most) of it of course with this handwriting :P ) and with the help of the Paleografy alphabet Jan provided, by the way the M is missing ? ) is that it says/ mentiones (something like) :

The herefore mentioned Roeloff Janssoon of (could be Marstreant (but many other things to me , like Marstreaul or Mentreaul ?) than occupation or ?? (no idea, and can't make anything out of it) age 21 years , (geen ouders hebbend(e)? has no parent(s ?) than a stricked word, so maybe started over here : Assisted by Jan Gerritsz his ? (zijn ?) living at the (woont bij de) St Thonispoort (?) and (en) Anna Jans of Vleckeroy bbe(maybe short for afkomstig van?) Norwegy age 18 years, assisted by (geassisteerd met) Trijn roeloffs her (haar ?) mother (moeder) (woont als voorzegt ? lives as mentioned before? so same adres?)

Well that's all I can make of it , and it doesn't mention they are uncle and niece or that Trijn Roeloffs is his sister, so we need to do some more research I guess , and check what and if something is wrong with the lineage/ connections by comparing a few genealogies, as much info as we can get I guess eeh ;)

answered Sep 23, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)
edited Sep 26, 2015 by Bea Wijma

OOOOOOOh! I just found in the van Rensselaer Bowier Documents where van Laer says that Roelof is Swedish.

"In the Van Rensselaer Bowier Mss, in the Rensselaerswyck Mss and in the N. Y. Col. Mss, invariably written Masterlant, Masterlandt or Masterland; not Maasterland or Maesterland, as spelled by M r de Roever and other writers. Maesterland occurs h. Groot Placaet Boeck, 1:724, 726, 741, 2384, 2396, 2438 and 8:1248, in connection with the herring fishery and has reference to Marstrand, on a small island off the coast of Sweden, near Goteborg. (See Woordenboek der Nederlandsche taal, 512210; map of Denmark in John Speed, Theatre of the Empire of Great Britain . . . with a prospect of the most famous parts of the world, London 1676; and Paskaert van t' Schager Rak . . . door C. J. Voogt, Geometra, 't Amsterdam by Joannes van Keulen [1710]). If, as may be presumed, Masterland is the same as Maesterland, it is interesting to note that Roelof Jansz as well as his wife, the well known Anneke Jans — whose mother, Trijn Jonas, appears in a fragment of an account of New Amsterdam, 1639, among the Rensselaerswyck Mss, as Trijn Jonas van Masterlan[d] — were probably not Dutch, but Swedes."

Could it be that Roelof was Swedish and Anneke Norwegian? Looks like it's Sweden in van Laers time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marstrand Swedish records for Marstrand don't start until 1685.

Or hm, if her mother was from "Masterland" as well, that is weird. Well at least the van Rensselaers described her that way. But still if her mother's patronym is Jonas and Roeloff is Janssoon, then they are likely not brother and sister, no? He would have to be a Jonsson in hypocorism form. Then again her mother appears with roeloffs in the marriage agreement. So this is all what has led us to this point haha.

commented Sep 23, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush G2G6 Mach 7 (79.5k points)
edited Sep 23, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush

Ok tried to reply earlier, but lost internet connection here :( , so sorry little late ;)

I also read somewhere he was from Sweden and indeed at the source/ record it doesn't say anywhere he's from Norway,as it says for his wife, but for him it doesn't say he was from a different country at all (at least I can't find a country mentioned, so all I can tell from that record is she is from a different country, Norway, and he is from a town, very hard to make anything of it, with some imagination we could make Maerstrant of it, but because there's no different country mentioned for him for all we know this could be a totally different place in Holland as well ? Or is there another record where it says he is from Sweden or Norway somewhere ? Or is this the only record which this was based on ? (the ''fact'' he was from Maerstrant)

Here's another source maybe explaining the Sweden part , it says it first was part of Norway and later belonged to Sweden , anyway no where they mention about Anneke Jonas Roelofs and her son in law that he is her brother..looking at the profiles , now it looks as if the first children have received the patronymic of mother (Jonas) So Catherine or Tryntje has the patronymic of mother ( so a matronymic) and her patronymic LNAB is Roelofs here (Wikitree profile and also according the record where the Jonas matronymic isn't mentioned at all) ...

So her father would have been a man named Roelof ?? Her daughter Anneke married Roelof Janssoon , his father would have been a man named Jan Roelofs (or at least a Jan, because it (the record) doesn't say what the LNAB /patronymic of his father was), so I guess one possibility could be:

1. Their mother had a relationship before or was married twice, first to a man named Roelof (would explain Tryntjes patronymic Roelofs and she and her sister were from a different father ? which would make Roelof Janssoon their half brother and after this marriage to her daughter her son in law ?

Also a possibility is:

2. they, so her son in law (and brother as well now) and she are not related at all and Roelof should be disconnected , or.....

3. Roelof is connected to the correct father , but his father wasn't the one who married Catharina Jonas , Tryntjes mother, but in fact her father was a man named Roelof ... with an unknown LNAB. So in that case his father should be disconnected form Tryntjes mother and should be removed as the father for Tryntje and her sister ? So guess a lot to read the next days to discover what's the case here eeh :P

commented Sep 24, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)
edited Sep 24, 2015 by Bea Wijma

Excellent find, Bea! That book you found is published by the New Netherland Institute and so I would put more stock into that than anything. http://www.amazon.com/Explorers-Fortunes-Letters-Mount-Press/dp/0962536857

Regarding Roelof's origins, nearly every time that he is mentioned in the van Rensselaer Bowier Manuscripts he is called "Roelof Jansz van Masterland". van Laer explains in footnotes on page 56-57 that he believes this to mean that his is Swedish (technically Norwegian but van Laer probably didn't know that). http://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/research/online-publications/van-rensselaer-bowier-manuscripts/ In Roelof's biography section, van Laer says:

"Roelof Jansz, from Masterland [Marstrand, on the coast of Sweden]; sailed in 1630 with his wife Annetje Jans, his daughters Sara and Trijntje and another child born before in New Netherland. He was farmer on de Laets Burg and was appointed schepen July I, 1632. He probably left the colony in 1634."

Regarding Anneke herself, according to the NNI book mentioned above, all we know of her is that her mother was Tryntie Jonas and her sister was Marritje Jans who married among others, Govert Loockermans. We only know from the patroym that Anneke and Marritje's father was named Jan as their father does not appear in New Netherland records. Some people have tried to forge a fantasy connection to William the Silent but this is just a myth.

Anything beyond that would have to be found in Netherland or Norway records, as it is before Sweden has records for the areas involved and the extent of the New Netherland records.

My guess is that based on the usage of "Roelofs" in the Amsterdam marriage contract, people (people as in ancestry.com trees) have assumed that Tryntie and Anneke's husband were related. Tryntie was never given that patronym anywhere but the marriage contract. It is never suggested in any official source, like the vRB Manuscript or the New Netherland Institute book, that Anneke might have been related to her first husband.

Furthermore, I think the connection to the Ryckmans was a result of conflation between Tryntie Jonas van Masterland and Jan Ryckman's wife, Tryntie Jans van Noorstrant http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/bios/j/trynjans.html Neither of these women went by Catherine and that is probably just an Americanism? :D

commented Sep 24, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush G2G6 Mach 7 (79.5k points)
edited Sep 24, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush

This is pretty far reaching, oof.

Proposals:

Jan Janse Ryckman was married to a Tryntje Jans, not Tryntje Jonas. This was the result of simple conflation.

Wolfert Webber was not married to Tryntje Jonas (and most likely did not run off to Norway and father 2 children in between the births of his 13 children). This was part of the fantastical attempt to tie Anneke and company to William the Silent.

Martje Jans (not in any way Webber or Ryckman) was the daughter of Jan Unknown and Tryntje Jonas, and sister of Anneke Jans.

Anneke Jans (not a Webber or a Ryckman) was the daughter of Jan Unknown and Tryntje Jonas, and sister of Martje. No more is known at this time.

This profile is the most correct for Tryntje "Catherine" Jonas aka Roelofs, mother of Martje and Annke, wife of Jan Unknown.

commented Sep 24, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush G2G6 Mach 7 (79.5k points)
edited Sep 24, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush

Totally agree Carrie , with just this to add :

1.Tryntje Jonas: it's possible she was registered with the patronymic of her husband instead of her own at this Amsterdam record ? Anneke has the patronymic Jans, so guess (if her mother used the patronymic of her husband for LNAB , than it would make sence a man named Jan Roelofs is/ would/could be the father of Anneke .

2. Husband Roeloff Janssoon, if the only thing it was based on he was from Norway or Sweden, was this marriage record, he could have been a Dutch man as well, and maybe from Montferland I mean if they can make Maesterland of this scribbling, Montferland could be an option as well or a different Dutch place, don't know if anyone has ideas or could decipher something else? To me it seems odd they, for his wife find it important enough to mention she is from a different country and for him they don't, (seem to, it's really hard to decipher eeh :P) mention this at all, in the New Netherlands he was a farmer if I'm correct . So maybe because it was mentioned his wife was from Norway, that's why someone assumed her husband was from Norway as well ? Those days there was a Norwegian community and it maybe just seemed logic for the researcher the Norwegians married Norwegians ?

Trying to decipher the occupation of Roelof Janssoon now , could take a while :P

commented Sep 24, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)
edited Sep 24, 2015 by Bea Wijma

Well I was working on some of my ancestors also from Norwegian, they were members of that church as well, and if I remember correct many Norwegians were (that's how I know there was a Norwegian community at Amsterdam , will check my sources again) which could be great, because they (people from that church/ religion) were almost always naming the children after the witnesses, according this they had three daughters and all were baptized at the Lutheran church, and at the Amsterdam archive I found many names, family members just because of this :)

But...they were from much later , so I don't know how many information or records there are from this much earlier period, guess they still had these Hidden or house churches , so you're already luck you found one baptism I guess :)

Here's a lot of info about the Lutheran church at the Amsterdam archive (in Dutch)

commented Sep 24, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)
edited Sep 24, 2015 by Bea Wijma

It's actually laid out very simply here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rclarke/page1/janse-jo.htm , thanks to the source of Dear "Cousin", which is hard to get.

Just ignore the fact that the page is treating Jonas as a patronym for the daughters and the assumption that Jans is a surname. The Nordic countries have an amazing patronymic system and used Christian names heavily. At least in Sweden, women didn't take their husband's names until the 19th century? And that was with soldier's names?

Oh regarding the Amsterdam baptisms, I think I found them all but there was clearly another Roeloff Janse baptizing children at the same time frame at that church so it's kind of unclear. http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jans-49#Children

commented Sep 24, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush G2G6 Mach 7 (79.5k points)
edited Sep 24, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush

Great, and now we have to make some moves I guess eeh , unrafel this family.. starting at the top ?

1.Jan Roeloff is most likely the father of our Roeloff Janssoon , so they can stay father and son.

2. But Jan Roeloff should be removed as father of Catharina and Marritje

3.Jan Roeloffs now wife Catharina Jonas is the mother of Catharina (Tryntje) and Marritje , the father of the girls was unknown, so the marriage between Jan Roeloffs and Catharina Jonas has to be removed.

4.Jan Janse Ryckman was married to a Trijntje Jans (now Trijntje UNKNOWN) so LNAB for her has to be corrected (more info about the Rijkman family:here) , so the marriage between him and Catharina after she is removed as mother from the Rijkman sons Harmen and Albert has to be removed. (already added a post at the profile of the Trijntje Jans profile with some explaining and a link to this G2G) of course the Rijkman sons get Trijntje Jans as mother.

5. Of course the same goes for the Webber husband and kids , Wolfert Webber was married to Anneke Koc ks they had numerous kids together so like Carrie said, it seems highly unlikely he in between or at some point was married to the mother of Anneke Jans and would be her father.So he should be removed as father for Anneke Jans (as far as I can tell he isn't set as her father , but just in case) All children Webber first need to be checked if they have the correct mother.

6. Maritje Jans is a sister of Anneke Jans so she should be connected to the correct mother and the Rijkman father removed

*Catherine Roelofs ([[Jonas-27]] Catherine Jonas Roelofs [[Roelofs-78]] are already in a proposed merge so they should be merged now

*removed unmerged match and proposed Merge of [[Janse-13]] into [[Jans-55]] Jans- 55 is PPP if I'm correct. same for [[Webber-960]] into [[Jans-55]]

If I'm correct than all is fine again ;) I'll start now from step one and will let you know here when I'm finished

commented Sep 26, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)
edited Mar 11, 2016 by Bea Wijma

Well if I'm correct (still dizzy from all these names and who is and who isn't a duplicate, correcting parents and so on :P ) all is done now, indeed the Catherine Jonas seems to be just a duplicate (with different birth date so she could become the mother) of now daughter Catherina , her husband Jan Roeloff is the father of Roelof Janssoon already so I will removed the marriage between them. so now the only thing that maybe needs to be done is merge the Catherina's , but that can be looked at later indeed. All duplicate Marritjes are sorted out , the unmerged matches removed. This Marritje Jans [[Jans-55]] now is the PPP profile (lowest number) and all duplicates are in a proposed merge with her. Already removed the DO NOT MERGE template added a note and post and will add the green line to her profile

So please if you have some time and feel like it , double check if all is correct, looks fine and is sorted out now :)

commented Sep 26, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)

Hi Astrid, the marriage scan was added to the profiles already and we studied it a thousand times and already discussed this as well, see the whole thread ;) So that It was strange they for his wife mentioned the fact she was from Norway , but for him they didn't ....so indeed he probably isn't from Norway, but there are no sources for this other than the marriage record which is hard to read and does not make very clear where he is coming from ...other than a vague town , which is transcripted by many as Marstrand (Maerstrand) or something like that. And this was a minor issue compared with the things that were really bad of this ancestry . (many people mixed up and wrong connections) But if you can find a source for where he really was from that would be great of course ! :)

commented Nov 1, 2015 by Bea Wijma G2G6 Pilot (310k points)
edited Nov 1, 2015 by Bea Wijma

Why are we taking the word of Ruth Putnam, 19th century author, over experts like A. J. F. van Laer, a Dutch born scholar who actually translated the New Netherland documents for his entire life, and other long time researchers of the family, like William Brower Bogardus, author of "Dear Cousin...", and George Olin Zabriskie, author of "Anneke Jans in Fact and Fiction", published in the NYGBR in 1973 and still respected today http://brouwergenealogy.blogspot.com/2012/09/anneke-jans-in-fact-and-fiction.html

None of the Dutch could spell Maasland right, not even the well educated van Rensselaers? Roeloff and Anneke were Lutheran? It's also important to remember that Anneke's mother was also "van Maesterland", according to the Van Rensselaer Bower Manuscripts and records of Albany.

If proof can be found that he was actually from the Netherlands, then please change things, but current research believes that he was from Scandinavia.

commented Nov 1, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush G2G6 Mach 7 (79.5k points)
edited Nov 1, 2015 by Carrie Quackenbush

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Anneke Jans' ancestry is bad [closed]

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2 Answers

01-04-1623

Jansz, Roelof

Jans, Anna

DTB 427, p.477

Huwelijksintekeningen van de KERK.

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