How confirm parents of George Scott?

+4 votes
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In trying to merge duplicates, I've run into a discrepancy about parentage of George Scott  (1495-1562 England) who married Maude Piguot (1504-1556) and was father of Edmund Scott who married Joan Howard -- all ancestors of Ursula Scott who married the emigrating Richard Kimball of Ipswich, MA.

According to Scott-3448, his parents were Sir John Scott and Anne Pympe.

According to Scott-555, his parents were George Scott and Anne Pympe.

Need someone far more familiar with this research to help resolve this. Until we do, can't complete the merges.

Thanks!
WikiTree profile: George Scott
in Genealogy Help by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (672k points)
retagged by Lianne Lavoie
I'm spending the morning trying to track this one down. One clue I've found is this:

In Connecticut Nutmegger 27(1994):397, I find the following:

"In an 1896 publication, Mr. Harold Bowen attaches Ursula [Scott, wife of Richard Kimball] to the renowned Scott family of Braebourne and Scotshall, Kent. The more authoritative work of Mr. [Jack] Threlfall refutes this connection."

I'm currently in search of the more authoritative work, which is probably in the NEHGS Register-- researching now.

Having trouble finding the Threlfall work-- appears to be a chapter/article in a book:

John Brooks Threlfall, "The Ancestry of John Spofford & Elizabeth Scott," in Fifty Great Migration Colonists to  New England & Their Origins (Madison, WI: JB Threlfall, 1990), p 411. 

Did find this brief description about Threlfall's findings:

"THRELFALL has the SCOTT ancestry back several generations to George (c1495 Bradfield, co. Suffolk, Eng - Oct 1547-Feb 1548 Bradfield Saint George, co. Suffolk, England) and Margaret (_?_) SCOTT."

There does not appear to be a digital version of Threlfall's 1990 book online. The LDS did film it. 

https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=405085

It's available via print-on-demand from Genealogical Publishing for about $36

It appears that MANY profile pages on Wikitree about the Scott ancestry are basing their claims on the disputed 1896 Bowen work. Therefore, it appears that the Scott line needs to be ended at George and Margaret (_____) Scott (as far as Threlfall got it in 1990), and detached from any older generations. Now I just have to find the right George and Margaret (_____) Scott profiles...
I know next to nothing about DNA testing except what I've heard in passing. But isn't DNA testing for genealogy supposed to answer questions like this? There must be thousands of Scotts with George Scott DNA, John Scott DNA, and William Scott DNA to compare? It seems to this amateur that with someone knowledgable about DNA and one or two Wikitree experts behind a project (Scott Hall Project???) we could solve this problem in a heartbeat. Since 1990!!! Maybe we could even find out Maude Pegot's name.
I am by far not an expert but found this in Wikitree with considerable references toSir John Scott. It hs references to books about members of parliment and Richardsons book on Magna Carta Barons. It states Anne Pympe Scott was his wife. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Scott_(died_1533)
I also see that George Scott 555 is now disconnected from the Scott lineage of the Scott ancestry (father and mother unknown)
Purely hypothetical question germane to the very core of genealogy:

Given DNA testing that Ralph Scott is the father of Fred Scott is the father of George Scott and the only hard source after 30 years of research is the grave of George in Brabourgh, Kent. The question is "have we met the five elements of proof outlined in the BCG manual?" A genealogical conclusion that meets these standards can be considered proved. It may still not be 100% accurate, but it is as close to accurate as we can attain given the information and sources available to us. Does Library Science trump Laboratory Science?

Purely hypothetical, of course . . . .
[edited]

What we're trying to confirm or disprove here is that the line above Ursula Scott (who m. Richard Kimball) goes beyond Henry->Edmund->George.

What DNA evidence links George to a next generation up?
I'm sorry if I was vague. My question was a hypothetical. But your question was right on the button. I'm absolutely positive that there is DNA evidence of George's ancestry. The odds are monumentally in his favor since the quest began in 1990. But my little pea-brain doesn't know enough about DNA to ask the correct question/s. My wife is in the Thomas-Edmund-George line so we are as concerned as our dear cousin, Ursula. I don't know if my wife's mt-DNA results will answer this y-DNA question....But I am just as sure that someone, somewhere has George's y-DNA. How do we find him? Thanks, Jillaine.
I don't know enough about y-dna or DNA generally. But to find a y-dna descent of George (or of his supposed father), wouldn't one need to find an all-male path down to a present day male Scott?
That is my understanding. So all we need to clear up the problem with George is to find a couple of y-DNA Scotts. I don't think that's as hard as it might sound.  There are a group of Scotts that have a reunion at Scott's Hall in Brabourne every year. Their DNA must prove their acceptance into this elite group. Therefore, their DNA is on record somewhere. It's not secret. I don't have the faintest idea how to procede from this point. Any suggestions out there???
My understanding is that it works this way:

One needs to work down from George Scott through his descendnats to find living male descendants -- looks like he's got a SLEW of them -- and request that those male Scotts submit their DNA to one of the Scott DNA projects. I found at least two such projects just through a google search. There's probably a project already underway elsewhere on this front, but I couldn't easily find a George trail on either of those two Scott DNA projects.
I'm at All-Stop. I don't know what question to ask of whom. I recently became a member of FTDNA and one of the Scott projects. I'll bet I'm close to finding out. Do we need to know what haplogroup we're looking for or does that present the answer?

When performing a survey, you cannot give the objective away or it will slew the answers or, in this case, the responders.

2 Answers

0 votes
Jillaine:      Sir John Scott was a Knighted by young Prince Charles who was

later Emperor Charles the V. Everyone surrounding him and his heirs were

Nobility. You can Google Sir John Scott. and read about him and descendants.

Also you may find something on him on Fabulous Pedigrees.Or Geni.I would say

most everything said is true.
by Wayne Morgan G2G6 Pilot (813k points)
Thanks, Wayne.  Have you seen the 1990 Threlfall analysis? It appears Threlfall was unable to find any documentation linking George with John.
0 votes
Years later, I finally purchased the 1990 Threlfall book. It's horribly disappointing re its use (or lack thereof) of source citations. It says nothing about Henry's ancestry other than:

"HENRY SCOTT (Edmund, George) was baptized on 1 November 1560 at Bradfield, Saint George, Suffolk, England." (Page 411)

Threlfall offers NO source for the baptism, his father's name or his grandfather's name.

Ugh, this book is so frustratingly organized. There *is* a page for Edmund (p 418) and then for George (p 423). But they are not grouped together. And as you see, the father comes pages *after* the son and the grandfather after the father. And there are other people (married-ins) in between.  There does seem to be evidence that this is a family unit if one is willing to trust Threlfall's uncited claims. About George, he says:

"GEORGE SCOTT of Bradfield Saint George was probably born about 1495, presumably in Bradfield. He was perhaps a grandson of Adam Scott of Bradfield who died testate in March 1474/5, leaving his estate to George Scott and Benedict Freg---, probably a son and married daughter.

"Robert Scott of Bradfield who died testate in March 1558/9 was probably a brother to George. Robert in his will mentioned a brother Thomas Scott, wife Idonye, 4 children: George, James, Joan, Agnes, and George Hunt, his brother-in-law

"George Scott died in late 1547 leaving a wife named Margaret, theee sons and an unmarried daughter. An abstract of his will follows:"

(Will mentions wife Margaret, son Edmund, son George, dau Isabel, son Nicholas; his mother; son Nicholas' children who are under 21; each godchild; every servant taking wages; to every servant not taking wages; William Wyatt:Thomas Swanton; my master Sir Thomas Jermyn to be supervisor. Witnesses Richard ----, priest, James Chapman and Robert Scott. )
by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (672k points)

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