How did Scott surname derive from de Balliol

Question

I ran across a profile for John Scott [[http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Scott-2047]] with a father as William Balliol [http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Balliol-36]].  I am curious how the name changed from Balliol to Scott.  Does this type of change happen often?  Are the sources on these two profiles clear enough to show the father/son relationship?

Thanks

John

Answer 1

I have no opinion on this particular case, but from doing research on another line, it seems back in the 13th century most people did not have true surnames but were instead described by where the person lived ("de" names), what they did (eg, the carpenter, the smith), or what their father's name was ("fitz" names and "son" names). A "de" name may have referred to a particular manor house that a person possessed and a younger son who did gain possession of the manor, may well not have been described by the same "de" name and instead been described by his new location, his father's name, or his occupation. At some point (frequently post 13th century), a real surname stuck, was used by subsequent generations, and did not change based on where someone happened to live, what they did, or what their father's first name was. The lack of true surnames creates an added challenge for doing early period genealogy.

Comments

That makes sense.  It seems on my Bentley side the name began (prior to 1164) with Dru the father of Gervase de Benetlea the earliest custodian of the Bentley Haye a place in England.  In the Scott case I would like to learn more about when and why the name started.

It is interesting to think that most last names began relatively recently...about 30 generations ago on my line of Bentleys.  Thanks for your info.

John

p.s. if anyone is interested, I recently started a Bentley Name study.  It can be found here:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Bentley_Name_Study

It has at least one source that lists Pipe Rolls from England from early 1200's to 1400s.

Answer 2

I am active in researching the Balliol and Scott lines, hoping to clear up some of the misinformation that is abundant. Ancestry.com trees, for instance, are full of errors. The biggest challenge is to verify the parentage of William de Balliol le Scot, the parent of this John Scott. The line of Scott, through Scotts Hall in Kent, descends from him. That family (and WikiTree) claims John Balliol and Devorgilla de Galloway are the parents. Much historical research, including some printed by Burke, supports that. 

However, Wikipedia supports a cousin Henry Balliol as the parent, claiming as source "Lives of the Baillies" by James William Baillie. Careful reading shows that source to support a contemporary William de Balliol as son of Henry, and mentions NO William de Baliol le Scott. William, son of Henry, is the founder of a long line of William Baillies of Hoprig and Lamington. A second souce quoted by Wikipedia gives "jarnou.free.fr/debailleul.html", which is no longer available.

On the change of name, apparently there was much fear of repercussion to the Balliol family after Edward I of England forced John Balliol, son of the above John, to abdicate as King of Scotland in 1296. Thus the Balliol line completely disappeared, to be replaced by the long lines of Scott and Baillie.

 I hope to find reliable evidence of one parent or the other.

Comments

It may be nothing more than acknowledging ethnicity. The people who lived in the area occupied by modern day Scotland were not all Scots. The Scots were a tribal group centred upon a part of Northern Ireland around Antrim. They gradually achieved a hegemony in what became Scotland but were probably quite distinct culturally from the Picts of the North and East of the country or the Brythonic people of Strathclyde and the borders.

That is one reason why someone may have been distinguished as 'the Scot'. Another may relate to author of the record in which it is written - many of the educated and landed classes in the Middle Age not from the above groups, but the likes of Bruce and others were from Norman ancestries just like the ruling classes in England - in fact many, like the Bruce family, were landowners in England. Now it may be that the scribe, being Anglo-Norman described someone as 'Le Scot' because in the group being described this was sufficient to identify him.

Even as late as the fifteenth century my namesakes father was William Orchard, but he was recorded in many charters as Le Mason, or simply William Mason. This was deemed sufficient to identify the person in law before the eventual adoption of formal and permanent family names.

If you have the evidence that your subject person was the son of another with a different surname, then that decides it - and it is not unlikely!

---

I don't know is you have seen this you probably have, but I came across this family when an ancestry tree tried to link a Killerby family in Leeds, through a Hirst family in Rothwell (my ancestors) to this family.

http://archives.balliol.ox.ac.uk/History/founders.asp, and https://books.google.com.au/books?id=_VMVAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA89&dq=de+balliol+family+of+kent&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx8Yzvv7PKAhVM9WMKHZlLDm0Q6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=de%20balliol%20family%20of%20kent&f=false

---

Thank you very much for your response. I have seen this article and am working on checking these references, which support BOTH sides of the story.

---

There's a source saying "The claim that "William Balliol le Scot", supposed progenitor of the family Scott of Scot's Hall, was a brother of John Balliol King of Scots (and therefore a son of the founders of the Balliol College in Oxford) is quite untenable (J.A.C. Vincent, 'The Genealogist', VI, 1882, 1), as this William was a brother to Alexander Balliol the Cavers, Chamberlain of Scotland, who was a distant cousin of King John Balliol." - Dr. John Jones, Dean and Archivist of the Balliol College, Oxford OX1 3BJ, UK

---

Hello everyone, first id like to add this is my direct Paternal line my profile is Scott-9507 there are some sources that should be completely disregarded or ignored and Wikipedia is one that should never be used for any ones ancestry as anyone can change it or add to it. For this Family good sources are Scott's of Scott's Hall in the County of Kent with appendix to illustrative Documents, and Principle Families of Ayrshire see page 43 for the Balliol Family page 45 mentions William Balliol le Scot as a family member. The source Lives of Ballies is better suited to the Baillies of Hoprig and Lamington and one must be carfull using it for the Baliol Family. The William mentioned in the Lives of Baillies in contradicting as he is reffered to as William Baillie or Balliol. Now i would like to add that i did a Y111 Str dna test then a 137 SNP backbone test that confirmed me to be R-m222 then i did The BiG Y test that refined me further to be R-S673 and i would like to add that my SNP's match all of the Geography for my ancestor locations i am also on the Big Y Dna Tree .see my FTDNA kit# results in related YDNA Groups at FTDNA now back to the William in the Lives of Baillies source he was born ca 1275/7 it may be possible that he is a half brother to John le Scot born 1290 , in time im hoping to prove this as i do have Bailey dna Matches one is at a genetic distance of 7 that fits this time frame but he needs to do more testing. Now as far as my Balliol descent i match people that match Naill of nine Hostages but i do not match Naill my self so that comment should clear things up for some. The Name change was to escape the Wrath of Edward l Longshanks during the scottish wars of independence and i also have Wallace YDNA matches that fit the classic Wallace line. My surname matches are also at a genetic distance that would tie into the Glemsford Scott's but they are at a brick wall with an ancestor . RJ Horace i noticed your comment William Balliol le Scot's grand mother was Margaret le Scot and the Balliol Family also owned Land in Scotland Cavers Castle was a 64 room Castle in its Hayday bilt by the Family in the 1200's then later owned by the Douglasses and it is located in the Ayrshire area and there where many generations of the Balliol Family they did not all stay at Barnard Castle , or Chilham Castle in kent or Cavers there are different times for these locations

---

Personal Info Deleted

---

Hi I Have acopy of the book under thirty seven kings, a chronical of the Boys family published 1926. This lists the Ancestry of Mary Harvey, back to Charlemayne, including the rather disputed Grundred as a daughter of William the Conqueror and Matilda. It lists John Scott as son of Sir William Balliol, It describes (page 120) -

Balliol on his dethronement, came into Kent, and soon afterwards the family built Scots Hall, Brabourne, near Ashford, He then retired to Normandy to his ancient inheritance, where at length falling blind and languiching wiht old age, he died at Castle Galliard. His descendant was buried, 1330, at St Marie's Brabornem and also his learned son Michael who was controller of the household of King Edward IV; his gradnson John Scott Lieutenant of Dover Castle, married the heiress of Combe. Sir Robert Scott, Lieutenant of the Tower 1424, left a daughter Alice who married William, the nephew of the Archbishop Kempe. In the reign of Henry IV William Scott rebuilt Scots Hall and kept his shrievalty there. Sir Edwards married a descendant of the ancient family of Honeywood. Sir Thomas married Joan, Daughter of Edward Hales, and a great friend of Edward Betzhanger.... Brabourne remained in the Scott familyy till 1594; only ruins now remain, and the last branch of the Scott family died at Talgarth, North Wales in 1840. In the little church at Brabourne is seen a heart shrine, but it os uncertainto whom it belongs, although it is believed  to belong to the Scott family. Here on the grave of John Balliol Scott are the words (in Welsh translated) What a generous race of lineage pure, what proud ones, shall for age endure".

Answer 3

Name changes happen, but in this case it's all just the usual mythology - wishful thinking evolving into fact unsupported by any evidence at all.

The big problems are

-- John and his father weren't the first landowners in Kent called Scot

-- the Balliols were an English family.  The one who became King of Scots had a trace of Scottish blood on his mother's side.  But a descent from an earlier Balliol doesn't account for anybody being called Scot.

Answer 4

It Had to do with Treason and the King making the Baliol, Balliol sure name

become extinct

Comments

ill post my source of that info at a later time i have too many bookmarks to go through

Answer 5

First not everyone with the surname Scott descend from this Line im proud to say i do, Most people of the Scott surname Have Irish Scandinavian Viking Descent this line and Myself are French Norse Viking Descent.

This was during the times of the Scottish wars of independance with William Wallace and the name change was to escape the Wrath of King Edward l (Longshanks) or they would have been Killed.

Comments

So Al are you saying that DF 49 is a known marker of definite Scandinavian ancestry? I had not heard that before and find it surprising. Do you have a link to any kind of rationale for that position?

I looked above and it is very hard to follow what you write. For example "Now as far as my Balliol descent i match people that match Naill of nine Hostages but i do not match Naill my self so that comment should clear things up for some. ".

For those who do not know M222 is one of the biggest and most common male lines in Britain and Ireland. DF49 is one branch of it. It is usually very hard to the a point of origin for any branch of the human male line (Y DNA) family tree, but M222 seems in any case to have had a large post Roman expansion from northern Ireland, which is why it is associated with King Niall.

Putting all of the above aside, I can not see how any such information helps us prove that a single Scott family was once named Balliol. DF49 and M222 are both too old for that surely, and include an enormous number of surnames and families from all over NW Europe? 

Do you have a very close match between the Scotts and a Balliol family for example?

---

Hi Andrew i know i should have been more specific there. Before i did the Big Y DNA Test at Family Tree DNA i did a 137 SNP Backbone test that confirmed my Haplogroup from Predicted R-M269 to R-M222 and i Used to get Comments from People that i do not have Balliol Descent and R-M222 is Irish and i would match Naill of Nine Hostages and that is why i made that comment that i match people that match him but i do not Match him My Self.

Now since i have done the Big Y that has refined me from being R-M222 i am now R-S673/R-BY21169 Common to England see this discussion

if you go to https://www.familytreedna.com/public/EnglandGBGroupseijNorman?iframe=ycolorized

and searrch for my Kit#510220 you will see Locations found for My SNP'S Northumberland Roxborough Selkirk Peebles Berwick Dumfries Edinburgh Angus Aberdeen Orkne

Northumberland England is where the Barnard Castle Fortress is Located where Willliam Balliol le Scot born 1251 was born the other locations cover Ayrshire Scotland for the Time frame of the Scottish wars of Independance when the Balliol Family would have Lived at Cavers Castle located in that area built by the Family in the 1200's

Now if you go to the BiG YDNA Tree  http://www.ytree.net/

Type in My Kit#510220 the Page for me will load you will see my ancestral name Balliol it is a clickable ling so is the number under the word Block you will also see under Haplogroup DF49 for Balliol i have that SNP.if you google that SNP it can be found in France and Scotland see these links https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b-DF49

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF49/

so as you should be able to see is that My SNP'S fit the Geography and History of the Paper Trail that verify the sources and complement them. My Terminal SNP after doing the Big Y is R-S673/R-BY21169 as you will see on the Big Y Tree and my Wikitree Line

---

Al trying to put it in a nutshell, if I understand correctly this is a Scott family from Kent and you are saying the DNA fits with an English, Scottish or French origin? Nothing surprising about that? Is there any actual testing done of Balliols?

---

Hi Andrew the answer to your Question is Yes and no That surname became extinct due to the Wrath of King Edward l (Longshanks) .

My Scott Line is Descended from William Baliol le Scot born 1251 Barnard Castle in Northumberland England. see Pedigree in this Book

https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/254/mode/2up/search/William+Baliol+le+Scot

My more recent ancestors descend from 44 and 45 of that Pedigree the Scott's of Glemsford Suffolk England Edward>Edward>Edward> Richard Scott of Providence born 1607 who immagrated to The USA>down to me. Now if you see my 111 Marker STR Results for My Kit#510220 Family V in the Scott Surname Project at FTDNA

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ScottDNAproject?iframe=ycolorized

Out of the 800 People in the Scott Project you  will notice i am the only R-S673 the Abraham Scott's in My Group V will fit the Glemsford Scott's as Norfolk England is only 60 miles away they are at a brick wall with Abraham as records for his Father are not on Line. For My STR Results notice the Red 12 that means Abraham is at a Genetic Distance of 1 and the Others being R-M269 in Red means there Haplogroup was Predicted, Mine was also until i did a 137 SNP Backbone Test then that confirmed me to Be R-M222 then i did a BiG Y Test that Confirmed me to be a Subclade of R-M222 making me R-S673 having said that the Others in My Family Group V would be the same after SNP Testing due to there STR Values. Now when you think about the Geography and History of the Paper Trail the Scott's, Scot's Balliol, Balliols in England and Scotland for the Different Time Frames i am the Only Scott out of 800 People in the Scott YDNA Project who's SNP'S fit all of The Geography of the Paper Trail back to France Before the Norman Conquest for the Balliol Family if you Look at Page 1 in the Scott Project STR Results there is an other Scott Kit#489956 Haplogroup l-M253 who claims he has John l King of Scott's as a direct ancestor notice his Haplogroup is in Red not Confirmed and that Haplogroup does not match the History or Geography like mine does so his DNA is Solidly against him and a Non Paternal Event most Likely entered his Line some where. I also belong to the Normandy YDNA Group and My DNA was selected for a Location Study for a Scientific Paper to be released some Time this Year. The Balliol Family being from Normandy that is in France The SNP DF49 is from France also https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b-DF49

and My BIG Y Results revealed i have that SNP and i shared My Big Y Results with the BiG Y Tree and they anilized my Results and found it and attached it to My Ancestral surname http://www.ytree.net/PeopleIndex.php?kit=510220

Everthing Fits

---

Allan that is not really an answer to my question. Is there any Balliol Y DNA you can compare to?

If you are just saying that your Y DNA haplotype is probably found mainly in France and Scotland then surely this is an extremely unconvincing argument for saying you have proven you descend from the medieval Balliols in the male line?

---

Ok the line is well sourced at least i tried to well source it here on Wikitree

but i am not pre1500 certified here as i do not spend much time here on wikitree i am no beginner by any means and The Balliol Surname became Extinct with the Wrath of King Edward l (Longshanks) who is also one of my ancestors through Katherine Marbury she Maried Richard Scott my Immagrant Ancestor as YDNA Follows Father son Father son ect My Scott's Descend from the Balliol Family it is what it is i have provided all sorts of sources and YDNA  evidence that support my Paper Trail and sources if you refuse to acknowledge what i have presented it is clearly out of Jealousy i am well accepted in the DNA Community

Here are some of the sources

https://books.google.ca/books?id=2yq-WRwR-sYC&pg=PA428&lpg=PA428&dq=Martin+Bowen+Scott&source=bl&ots=fDlA098c7X&sig=e0VvDq7OPzhyvxqSqO5bENXMUV8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwie782P0OfOAhVDuxQKHZ8ZBuQQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Martin%20Bowen%20Scott&f=false

Scroll up to page 16

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Zrs-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=scott%27s+of+Glemsford&source=bl&ots=cducnJNhEy&sig=mdPSAd41QpZ9C1Fl8TaGBQm6zJQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGrc_3kIXOAhVBwYMKHdgQBTEQ6AEIPzAF#v=onepage&q=scott's%20of%20Glemsford&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=-pgyAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

The Principle Families of Ayrshire see page 43 for the Balliol Family page 54 William Balliol le Scot is mentioned as a Family Member see comment from Adminastrator of England GB Norman YDNA Group that i posted previously above in earlier post regarding my YDNA SNP'S

https://ia801409.us.archive.org/3/items/agenealogicalac00robegoog/agenealogicalac00robegoog.pdf

Pages 20-23 and pages 254,255 are correct for Pedigree's in this source

https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/254/mode/2up

The Book of Wallace page 34 John and Alexander Balliol had Land in Scotland that would have been the 64 Room Cavers Castle so William Baliol le Scot would have been there also as my SNP'S prove it and he was Clerk for Alexander the Chamberlain of Scotland

http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/Places/cavers.htm#.WVBDqevyvIV

 

http://www.rettie.co.uk/property-for-sale/borders/scottish-borders/denholm/MEL130005-house-building-plot-country-home-cavers

 

http://www.scotclans.com/scotland/visit-scotland/scottish-castles/scottish-borders/cavers-castle/

---

Hey there… I’ve read alll these comments, I know nothing about any of this really but I have done quite a bit of research just no DNA, but I’m a descendent of Charles Barham, son of Kathrine Filmer, daughter of Elizabeth Argall, daughter of Mary Scott, I’ve read many places she is a descendent of William Balliol brother of John, and therefore descended from King David. Also she was a direct descendant of William the Conqueror as well as Charlemagne, although I’m not sure yet if it is the same lineage, or somewhere it was through a different parent. So what I’m asking is was King David a descendant of Charlemagne? And I’m new at this please anyone that replies be nice I’m sensitive ok