Merge two Pre-1500 Profiles

Question

Von_Strocha-1 and VonStrocha-1 are the same individual. I would like to merge them, though do not have the certification to do so. Would someone help me with this merge? I'm cleaning my tree, and would greatly appreciate the help. There are a few things pre-1500 in the Hoffman line that I need help with, actually.

 

Thanks!

Comments

Sara:

For the last few days I have been looking into this family and would have to say preliminarily that almost nothing of this genealogy prior to Paulus Hoffman has any documentation. It looks like the result of copying of what Thomas Patrick Hughes and Frank Munsell cobbled together from a variety of noteworthy European Hoffmann families in their "American Ancestry." The most glaring example is making Johannes Hoffmann von Schweidnitz, the rector of the university in Leipzig in 1413 and later bishop of Meissen the father of Friedrich Hofmann von Grünpüchel, the husband of Margaretha Püchler.

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Thank you for saying this doesn't seem correct. It doesn't to me either--the names or dates--which is part of my confusion. I don't think the line carries through the way it's indicated. Even the Find A Grave for the man indicated as rector is wrong: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=55207454

The man in the photo is not the man described by the Find A Grave entry, as in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hoffmann

I've been tentative about putting it out there that this is wrong, because it's incorrect in many places/sites, and I don't know what is correct. But the dates don't match, even the people don't. Much of it isn't correct. I've adopted a lot of these profiles because they were abandoned. I see why, now.

Thanks for your input.

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You are right about those two Friedrichs, they are about 200 years apart and not related in any way. Sadly, not even the man described in the Find-A-Grave memorial is the right man: If he was indeed born in Prague in 1403 he was not the husband of Margaretha Püchler in Styria, that Friedrich died after 1521.

Hoffmann, not counting other spellings like Hofmann etc., is the 10th most common last name in German speaking people. There are multiple families all over Europe with notable people and the authors of "American Ancestry" developed a lot of phantasy in tying them all together.

Answer 1

Wow.  Watch this one!  That name is a hot mess!  :-)

OK, I am somewhat familiar with German aristocratic family names.  But the woman profiled there is Austrian by birth, and their naming conventions may be different.  An expert on the Austrian conventions needs to help out with this one.

One thing I'm certain of is that "VonGrunpichl Pichler" is absolutely not her given name.  Her given name was apparently Margaretha,

Here is her Find a Grave page.  And here is a link to an 1895 book which mentions her marriage to Friedrich (not Fredrick) Hoffman.

In both cases, her name is given as "Margaretha Pichler von Grünpichl und Ströcha."  Exactly how you would parse the last name at birth from that is a question for our hypothetical Austrian aristocracy expert.

Comments

Yes, those are the resources I found, as well. My understanding is the surnames "von von Grünpichl und Ströcha" merged into a title, which was extended to her husband upon marriage.

 

 

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I would suggest adding the EuroAristo tag to your initial post.  Maybe we can get the attention of an Austria expert from that project on this question.

Meanwhile, what I do know:

Maybe it's just a typo, but the "von von" is definitely wrong.  The von should also be a separate word, not stuck on as part of Grünpichl.  Also, the umlauts are important in German.  They appear over the vowels a, o, and u, and no other letters.  They substantially change the way the vowel is pronounced (with and without the umlaut).  In German aristocratic names, the von is not considered a part of the family name.  So when the name Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller is inverted (i.e., written last name, first name) it is rendered as Schiller, Johann Christoph Friedrich von.  I expect it would be done the same way in Austria, but I really think we need that expert to be sure.

The next question is her LNAB.  Is Pichler a part of her given name, or is that a family name?  The question there is; should it be LNAB=Pichler and Other Last Names=Pichler von Grünpichl und Ströcha?  Or should the LNAB be Grünpichl und Ströcha, and OLN=von Grünpichl und Ströcha?

I don't know enough to tell you what the correct answer is.  That's why I'm hoping we have an expert in the area who will chime in.

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Thank you!

Answer 2

Here's some info for this family and the names Allgemeine encyklopädie der wissenschaften und künste It's in German , here's something about her and her name: Margaretha Pichler ,she was  the last of her tribe , the -die Herrschaft (don't know maybe translated as Barony ?)  Grünpichl or Grünbühel , east from Rottenmann , at the foot of the Lichtmes mountain (and more) 

The book mentiones the Hofmanns von Grünpichl und Ströcha (as freiherren =Barone or lords ?) they appear for the first time as (emsige un gludliche) mountain people in the Steiermart . Friedrich Hofmann who also appears in 1460 as Landesfurstlicher Mauthner zu Rottenmann und Pfleger zu Wolfenstein or maybe Wolkenstein (no idea how to translate this) He received from emperor Friedrich 1482 die Mauth zu Rottenmann (Title or office , maybe same as pourer office?))  In 1495 the master hunter office im Landesgericht (regional or state court) Wolkenstein or  Wolfenstein  in der Sölk, im Donnersbach und im Leinerthal and he married Margaretha Pichler . 

And here:  The base area is completed by a (coat of arms?)-Wappen Fries (or a Fries Guardian-warrior?), with alternate the coat of arms of Hans Hoffmann (crowned black Capricorn) and his mother Margaretha Pichler 's (a golden sheaf of corn). Above and besides it, the facade is filled with painted white-red bricks that form a rough diamond pattern. Here is the site it has more pictures of the house and info 

Now to me it looks like the name was just Margaretha Pichler , the Hoffmans seem to be referred to as (lords/barons)- freiherren von Grünpichl or Grünbühel. Son  Andreas is mentioned here as Andreas Hofmann von Grünpichl , son Johann Hofmann zum Grünpichl ...and there's a lot of info for them as well ...

Comments

Love you; hate the font.

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Thank you, Bea.  EuroAristo to the rescue!  :-)

For Sara - Your browser may be set differently than mine, but when I went to the "pictures" page Bea linked, all the German special characters (umlauted letters and eszett) were showing up as a black diamond with a question mark in the center.  I got them to change to the correct characters by switching the browser's encoding settings from Unicode (UTF-8) to Central European (ISO 8859-2).

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The family name is Püchler, sometimes also given as Pichler. Grünpüchel and all its spelling variations come from one of their possessions: Schloss Grünbühel https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Gr%C3%BCnb%C3%BChel_(Steiermark) Friedrich Hofmann whose title was that of a Ritter (knight) got possession of Grünpüchel through his marriage to Margaretha and when his son Hanns was elevated to Reichsfreiherr in 1540 he got the title Freiherr zu Gruenpüchel und Strechau. http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz33261.html

Strocha/Ströcha are variations for Castle Strechau. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burg_Strechau Since Hanns Hofmann bought the castle only in 1528 it would be very unlikely that his mother was already named after it.

Back to Margaretha's last name then: Püchler is the name for the family most often used in the literature, therefore, it should be her LNAB, Pichler has also been used and should be in the Other Last Name field.

More to the family Püchler: https://books.google.com/books?id=eo0BAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA172&lpg=RA2-PA172&dq=P%C3%BCchler+zu+Sch%C3%B6der&source=bl&ots=DWzQ7oiDm_&sig=rJDl9nIJibWGfc5-pKFbi5EluAo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuhaDozpXLAhUBVSYKHZ11AygQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=P%C3%BCchler%20zu%20Sch%C3%B6der&f=false

 

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Thank you, Helmut.  That profile is going to need a lot of editing.

Your links to biographical info should be very helpful for explanatory notes in the bio section about the various ways the name is sometimes written.  I assume all the odd spellings are just rendering the names the way they are spoken in a particular Austrian dialect.  I have heard some Austrian dialect, but more Bavarian, which is similar, but not quite the same.

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thank you , hope this is better ? :)

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Great stuff thank you Helmut :) and indeed Fred I guess the Pichler is more the Austrian pronouncement, well I think these profiles can get a great Bio now eeh , loads of info .