Southworth Magna Carta?

Question

 I fixed up John with some sources and I noticed he's a Magna Carta descendant through multiple lines. He is in Magna Carta 2nd Edition, p. 213 son of Margery (Boteler) Southworth, dau. of Thomas Boteler, son of Margaret Stanley (Stanley-51). who is a descendant of Quincy-226 (and 8 others!).

Here's all the lines I found with an ancestor tagged by the proj in parens

• Albini-39 (Ros-12)
• Bigod-2 (Stanley-51)
• Bigod-1 (Stanley-51)
• Bohun-7 (Stanley-51)
• Clare-673 (Stanley-51)
• Clare-651 (Stanley-51)
• Clavering-13 (Gerrard-4)
• Lacy-284 (Stanley-51)
• Malet-18 (Stanley-51)
• Quincy-226 (Stanley-51)
• Ros-162 (Ros-146)
• De Vere-309 (Stanley-51)

His great-grandson Constant Southworth-111 is tagged as a questionable gateway ancestor but since he seems a lot less questionable than some I thought I'd alert the proj. Hope this helps - thanks!

 

Comments

He's questionable because John's father's parentage remains questionable.

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Sir John Southworth was a MP with a bio at the History of Parliament which doesn't appear to question his parents.

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Apologies; i meant the line back from the immigrants' father Edward is in question.

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Kirk, I added the tag 'euroaristo' to your post, and would recommend you always put that on any that you also have tagged with Magna_Carta, solely because I believe there are some of our EuroAristo members that follow the euroaristo tag but not the magna_carta tag...  Thanks!

Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project - British Isles 742-1499

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Constant is in the Magna Carta Project's Questionable Gateway Ancestors category, which by definition "is attached to colonial immigrants that appear to have Magna Carta lines on WikiTree that do not appear in the sources below." The "sources below" being Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry and Royal Ancestry.  In MCA, Richardson lists Thomas Southworth, Knt. as husband of Margery, one of the eight daughters of Sir Thomas Boteler & his wife Margaret Delves. But Richardson continues the trail through son Thomas and only one daughter (Elizabeth), and does not list any children of Thomas Southworth, so son John is not part of Richardson's research & neither is Constant. Although not listed among the "sources below" on the category page, the MC Project page includes the following:

The European Aristocrats project uses as its foundational source the Medieval Lands database, maintained by the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy and based on the published works of Charles Cawley. The Puritan Great Migration project uses the Great Migration series by Robert Charles Anderson. These are also accepted as definitive sources for Magna Carta profiles.

So, if Anderson documents Constant's line up to Thomas Southworth, I believe that would work to move Constant from questionable to Gateway, even though he's not included as such by Richardson.

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ps - Last time I tried to get my Questionable moved over, I had the following posted to one of the ancestors in the trail that was showing History of Parliament among the sources:

So far, all we have for Henry's alleged mother (his father's second wife) is secondary sources going back to a Heraldic visitation -- no primary source documentation whatsoever. This is clearly insufficient for a Magna Carta lineage! Henry could have been the final child of his father's first wife, raised by the second wife. Right now we just don't know.

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Thanks Darlene for retagging and Liz, that was the kind of answer I was looking for - my later G2G I noted Constant's father Edward Southworth is the prob. in the line since there's not good documentation for his parents, Weis has a note on p. 14  with the issue, referring to a Mayflower Quarterly article I can't find. This would have to be fixed before a trail could be proposed.

The Southworth family hit all the high notes on religious strife in 16th century England - recusancy, conformist, separatist, with a sainted martyr and accused witch so that at least keeps their ancestry in the sights of scholars who might shore up some of the missing links.

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Kirk, I have read the article.  It breaks the Southworth line, and shows the Leiden brothers Edward and Thomas Southworth most likely originated from Nottinghamshire, and that the evidence that they were children of Thomas Southworth of Samlesbury is weak to nonexistent .

I can email you the article.

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Thanks for tracking it down, I'd appreciate the article if you could e-mail it, thanks!

Answer 1

Great to see all this documentation here and in John Southworth's profile!

The Magna Carta project, I think, goes by the definition that a Gateway Ancestor actually moved to the new world, so that is why his great-grandson Constant Southworth is marked as a potential Gateway Ancestor. See the Magna Carta project for reasoning and examples.

Sandy

Answer 2

I agree it is a great job, very timely and informative pedigrees.

I don't want to change the focus or goal, just pass on an "entertaining" genealogy side story of Southworth113 19th Century descendants. flowing from the 16th Century.

Specifically Cornelius Vanderbilt-1 has this Southworth-113 as a 6th GGF with all of the Magna Carta Middle Ages impact on Western-Civilization power of the people. And the "Commodore" Vanderbilt-1 also has a 5th GGF Jansen-131, b 1570, who was a notorious Barbary Pirate, the first President and Grand Admiral of the Corsair Republic of Salé.

Vanderbilt after dropping out of school around age 11, transformed himself into the Richest Man in the World

History is entertaining. Be careful of what you wish for.

Answer 3

I wrote a book Magna Carta and Isabel Dutton that details nine, not eight, connections between Isabel Dutton and the suretors of Magna Carta. And it details her descent from 13 monarchs and 2 emperors as well. It's a free download.