New Information! Concerning status of Joan De Cherleton, fixed as (uncertain).

Question

Sorry, but is it Joan De Cherleton, (uncertain)? Or, is it son, Arnold St_Leger, (uncertain)?  

Royal Ancestry by Douglas Richardson Vol. I, page xxvi 

Discoveries, Corrections and Additions: 

Royal Ancestry by Douglas Richardson Vol. IV, page 414

Joan De Cherleton, wife of John De Beauchamp, Knt. [see POWICK 11].

11. JOHN DE BEAUCHAMP, Knt., born in or before 1330, married (1st) about 17 April 1352 JOAN DE CHERLETON, daughter of John de Cherleton, Knt., 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis, by Maud, daughter of Roger de Mortimer, Knt., 1st Earl of March [see CHERLETON 11 for her ancestry]. They had two sons, William, Knt., and Walter, Knt., and two daughters, Alice and Sibyl.    

Royal Ancestry by Douglas Richardson Vol. II, page141

11. MAUD DE MORTIMER, married before 13April 1319 JOHN DE CHERLETON (or CHARLETON), Knt., 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis, North Wales, of Pole (Welshpool), Montgomeryshire, Pontesbury, Shropshire, etc., Chamberlain of the Household to King Edward III, son and heir of John de Cherleton, Knt., 1st Lord Cherleton of Powis, Chamberlain to King Edward II, Justiciar of Ireland, by Hawise, daughter of Owain ap Gruffudd ap Wenwynwyn (otherwise known as Owen de la Pole). He was born about 1316. They had two sons, John, Knt. [3rd Lord Cherleton] and Roger, Knt., and one daughter, Joan. His wife, Maud, was living August 1345. He married (2ND) before 1346/76 AVICE _____. SIR JOHN DE CHERLETON, 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis, died shortly before 30 August 1360.

Children of Maud de Mortimer, by John de Cherleton, Knt.       

 i. JOHN DE CHERLETON, Knt., 3rd Lord Cherleton, feudal Lord of Powis [see next].

ii. JOAN DE CHERLETON, married JOHN DE BEAUCHAMP, Knt., of Powick Worchestershire [see POWICK 11].      

Thank you for your help

Answer 1

I am not totally sure I understand the question here.  I think there may be some confusion because there are two (or three) different Joan de Cherleton's.

First, is Joan de Cherleton, daughter of John de Cherleton 2nd Lord Cherleton, who married John de Beauchamp. (Royal Ancestry II p. 141, CHERLETON 11; Royal Ancestry IV p. 414 POWICK 11).

Second, is Joan de Cherleton-1, daughter of Edward de Cherleton 5th Lord Chereleton, who married John Grey. (Royal Ancestry II p. 143, CHERLETON 13; Royal Ancestry III p. 589, LLOYD 8).

Neither one of these two women could possibly be the wife of Arnold St_Leger-104 as is currently stated on his profile.  Joan de Cherleton-1 needs to be disconnected as his wife.

The other wife of  Arnold St_Leger-104 is currently given as Joan de Cheriton-1, daughter of John de Cherleton 3rd Lord Cherleton and Joan Stafford.  Richardson says this John de Cherleton 3rd Lord Cherleton had 2 sons and 1 unnamed illegitimate daughter - something is wrong and needs to be untangled in this generation.

Comments

Thank you, Joe Cochoit, great answer! I am working on the possible Magna Carta relationship trail of Joan (Cherleton) to Edward Wyatt, and Joan is fixed as (uncertain). If there is a way to remove the (uncertain) from Joan Cherleton, seems like this would be a good trail, with a little more work. :-)

Thanks    

12. Conquest is the son of Edward Wyatt [unknown confidence]  
13. Edward is the son of Hawte Wyatt [confident]  
14. Haute is the son of George Wyatt [unknown confidence]  
15. George is the son of Jane (Haute) Wyatt [unknown confidence]  
16. Jane is the daughter of Maria (Guildford) Haute, Hawte [unknown confidence]  
17. Maria is the daughter of Anne (Pympe) Guilford [unknown confidence]  
18. Anne is the daughter of Philippa (St Leger) Pympe [unknown confidence]  
19. Philippa is the daughter of John St Leger [unknown confidence]  
20. John is the son of Arnold St Leger [unknown confidence]  
21. Arnold is the son of Joan (Cherleton) de Cherleton [uncertain]  
22. Joan is the daughter of Alianore (Holland) Mortimer [confident]  
23. Eleanor is the daughter of Thomas Holland [confident] 

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 I’m afraid the line as you have given it is broken, possibly in several places.  It is always best to start at the bottom and work up.

 

The first problem I ran into was with the mother of Anne Pympe, wife of Richard Guil(d)ford.  She was not Philippa St. Leger.  Anne Pympe was the daughter of John Pympe by his wife Philippe Thornbury, daughter of John and Anne Thornbury of Faversham, co. Kent.

Douglas Richardson briefly touched on the error in a post in 2014.

I also believe there are errors in the disconnected St. Leger line but I haven’t researched hard for them as the line is broken in an earlier generation.

soc.genealogy.medieval post. Philippa Thornbury, by Colin and reply by Douglas Richardson (25 January 2014).

Davis, Walter Goodwin. The Ancestry of Mary Isaac, C. 1549-1613: Wife of Thomas Appleton of Little ...(1955):79.

Guilford-Kardell, Margaret . The Guilford Families, 900-1982, Volume 1. (1983):63.

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Thank you, Joe Cochoit, for taking a look at the proposed Magna Carta line! I appreciate this very much!

I am starting my research with Alice (Needhanm-201), birth 1659, Ireland, death Virginia, who married William (Bryan-1413), birth 1665 in Ireland, death 1742 in North Carolina. Both, birth in Ireland, and death in the US, hoping to find supporting records they are immigrant ancestors. 

Found, (1) source for, William Bryan, immigrant, in Ancestry William Bryan came to America: "THE NORTH CAROLINA HISTORICAL AND GENEALOGICAL RIGISTER," VOL. 1 . 

https://books.google.com/books?id=j9YUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA577&lpg=PA577&dq=William+Bryan+came+to+America,+settled+in+Isle+of+Wight+Co.,+Va.,+afterwards+he+and+two+sons+Needham+and+John+Bryan+came+to+north+Carolina+about+1722&source=bl&ots=Ioia5-yjqO&sig=0dND0Rj8oaD-S6y6H2dO-X7whBM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixw6Siw6zLAhVDMyYKHYTpDnYQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=William%20Bryan%20came%20to%20America%2C%20settled%20in%20Isle%20of%20Wight%20Co.%2C%20Va.%2C%20afterwards%20he%20and%20two%20sons%20Needham%20and%20John%20Bryan%20came%20to%20north%20Carolina%20about%201722&f=false

==

 

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1. Alice is the daughter of Charles Needham [unknown confidence] 
2. Charles is the son of Robert Needham [unknown confidence] 
3. Robert is the son of Robert Needham [unknown confidence] 
4. Robert is the son of Robert Needham [unknown confidence] 
5. Robert is the son of Thomas Needham [unknown confidence] 
6. Thomas is the son of Agnes (Mainwaring) Needham [unknown confidence] 
7. Agnes is the daughter of John Hankyn Mainwaring [unknown confidence] 
8. John is the son of Ellen (Butler) Mainwaring [unknown confidence] 
9. Ellen is the daughter of John Boteler [unknown confidence] 
10. John is the son of William (Boteler) le Boteler [unknown confidence] 
11. William is the son of Alice (Plumpton) le Boteler [unknown confidence] 
12. Alice is the daughter of Christiana (Mowbray) Plumpton [confident] 
13. Christiana is the daughter of John (Mowbray) de Mowbray [unknown confidence] 
14. John is the son of Rose (Clare) de Mowbray [unknown confidence] 
15. Rose is the daughter of Maud (Lacy) de Clare [unknown confidence] 
16. Maud is the daughter of Margaret (Quincy) de Wiltshire [confident] 
17. Margaret is the daughter of Robert (Quincy) de Quincy [confident] 
18. Robert is the son of Saher (Quincy) de Quincy [confident] 

Thanks! :-) 

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==

1. Alice is the daughter of Charles Needham [unknown confidence] 

2. Charles is the son of Robert Needham [unknown confidence] 
3. Robert is the son of Robert Needham [unknown confidence] 
4. Robert is the son of Robert Needham [unknown confidence] 
5. Robert is the son of Anne (Talbot) Needham [unknown confidence] 
6. Anne is the daughter of Margaret (Troutbeck) Talbot [unknown confidence] 
7. Margaret is the daughter of Adam Troutbeck [unknown confidence] 
8. Adam is the son of Margaret (Stanley) Grey [unknown confidence] 
9. Margaret is the daughter of Thomas Stanley [confident] 
10. Thomas is the son of John Stanley [unknown confidence] 
11. John is the son of Isabel (Lathom) Stanley [unknown confidence] 
12. Isabel is the daughter of Thomas Lathom [confident] 
13. Thomas is the son of Eleanor (Ferrers) Lathom [confident] 
14. Eleanor is the daughter of Hawisia (Muscegros) Ferrers [confident] 
15. Hawise is the daughter of Robert (Muscegros) de Muscegros [unknown confidence] 
16. Robert is the son of John (Muscegros) de Muscegros [unknown confidence] 
17. John is the son of Helewisia (Malet) de Muscegros [unknown confidence] 
18. Hawise is the daughter of William Malet [confident] 

 

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Duplicate removed.

Thanks

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OK, you need to take a real close look at your very first generation.  The ancestry of Alice Needham at best can be said to be controversial, and is generally not accepted.  There is apparently no proof whatsoever of her ancestry as a Needham.  This identification was first mentioned as a possibility in 1900, and then repeated as fact in later secondary sources.

From what I can tell more recent research shows she is not Alice Needham at all, but Alice Macland daughter of John Macland as proved by his will in 1705.

Certainly, it would seem there is a Needham somewhere in the ancestry as so many descendants were given the name Needham Bryan.  Still, Alice Needham needs to be disconnected as a daughter of Charles Needham, and probably updated to show the more recent research calling her Alice Macland.

 

Tillman,  James David.  Tillman & Hamilton Family Records: With Their Many Ancestral Lineages, Volume 3. (1963):14, Bryan Family. http://tinyurl.com/zzbmvsd

James Robert Bent Hathaway. The North Carolina Historical and Genealogical Register, Volume 1 no. 1 ( January 1900):577, Bryan Record.  http://tinyurl.com/j4tddkb

Lindsay M. Brien, Edward Bryan of North Carolina, National Genealogical Society Quarterly 49 (June 1961): 71-73. http://tinyurl.com/jp99x2d

(Sorry about breaking your lines.  It is often easier to disprove lines than it is to prove them.  Still genealogy is all about getting it right)

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Thank you so much, Joe Cochoit, for your time! :-)

Agree, we want to get it right! :-)

Both of the following, Frances (Aston-583) Neeham, and Frances (Aston-04) Needham,  married a Robert Needham, Esq., Sheriff of Shropshire, son of Thomas Needham, Esq., and Anne Talbot, before 1558. And, both show Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, Plantagenet, and Royal Ancestry sources. 

She married Robert Needham, Esq., Sheriff of Shropshire, son of Thomas Needham, Esq. and Anne Talbot, before 1558.^[4]

• Frances (Aston-583) Needham 1538 Tixall, Staffordshire, England - August 31, 1601 ~ Managed by Doug Lockwood.
• Frances (Aston-94) Needham 1538 Tixall, Staffs, England, United Kingdom - August 1601 ~ Managed by Enrique Treat Gleason Aguiluz.
• Thanks,

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Can we agree, the relationship trail betweem Aston-583 and Malet-18 is also correct? 

 

1. Frances is the daughter of Joan (Bowles) Aston [unknown confidence] 
2. Jane is the daughter of Thomas Bowles [unknown confidence] 
3. Thomas is the son of Ralph Bowles [unknown confidence] 
4. Ralph is the son of Isabel Seymour [unknown confidence] 
5. Isabel is the daughter of Roger Seymour [unknown confidence] 
6. Roger is the son of William Seymour [confident] 
7. William is the son of Cecily (Beauchamp) St Maur [confident] 
8. Cecily is the daughter of John Beauchamp [confident] 
9. John is the son of John (Beauchamp) de Beauchamp [confident] 
10. John is the son of Cecily (Vivonne) de Beauchamp [confident] 
11. Cecily is the daughter of William (Vivonne) de Forz [confident] 
12. William is the son of Mabel (Malet) de Vivonne [confident] 
13. Mabel is the daughter of William Malet [confident] 

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and/or the relationship trail between Aston-94 and 
Saheer (Quincy-226)? 

1. Frances is the daughter of Sir Edward Aston [unknown confidence] 
2. Edward is the son of John Aston [unknown confidence] 
3. John is the son of John Aston [unknown confidence] 
4. John is the son of Robert Aston [unknown confidence] 
5. Robert is the son of Joyce (Freville) Aston [unknown confidence] 
6. Joyce is the daughter of Maud (Scrope) le Scrope [unknown confidence] 
7. Maud is the daughter of Margery (Welles) Scrope [unknown confidence] 
8. Margery is the daughter of John Welles [unknown confidence] 
9. John is the son of Margaret Eleanor (Bardolf) Bardolph [unknown confidence] 
10. Margaret Eleanor is the daughter of Elizabeth (Amory) Bardolf [unknown confidence] 
11. Elizabeth is the daughter of Elizabeth (Clare) Damory [unknown confidence] 
12. Elizabeth is the daughter of Gilbert (Clare) de Clare [confident] 
13. Gilbert is the son of Maud (Lacy) de Clare [confident] 
14. Maud is the daughter of Margaret (Quincy) de Wiltshire [confident] 
15. Margaret is the daughter of Robert (Quincy) de Quincy [confident] 
16. Robert is the son of Saher (Quincy) de Quincy [confident] 

Thank you so much!! :-)

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The Wyatts have a lot of alternative lines, just not that one.

Unless something's changed, Richardson doesn't buy Christiana Mowbray's parentage, so no badge, though personally I like that line.

Again, there's an alternative, through her husband William Plumpton, to Ros.  (Everybody accepts this line except MedLands.  I don't know why they do, but there it is.)

If you can get to Frances Aston, the lines through her husband Robert Needham are good.

Margaret Eleanor Bardolph needs dismantling.  But Joyce Freville has alternative lines through both parents.

The Relationship Finder has a knack of finding the bad lines.

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Hi RJ Horace :-)

I have Frances Aston :-).

Royal Ancestry Vol, IV page 207 - 208
Under NEEDHAM has ...

AGNES (MAINWARING-76), married ROBERT ()NEEDHAM-69), their son THOMAS (NEEDHAM-238) married ANNE (TALBOT-785), their son ROBERT (NEEDHAM-310), married FRANCES ASTON-94 or FRANCES (ASTON-583) (the two Frances Aston's need a merge) they had two sons ROBERT and THOMAS NEEDHAM.

Richardson has the daughter DOROTHY NEEDHAM who married RICHARD CHETWODE,, but stops there. .      

Thanks, RJ

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Richaardson has the daughter DOROTHY NEEDHAM who married RICHARD CHETWODE,, but stops there. .

The earlier books had a footnote at that point "Parents of Grace Chetwode".  Losing the footnotes has made the latest books much harder to use in some ways.

 

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4. Ralph is the son of Isabel Seymour [unknown confidence]  
5. Isabel is the daughter of Roger Seymour [unknown confidence]  
6. Roger is the son of William Seymour [confident]  
7. William is the son of Cecily (Beauchamp) St Maur [confident]  

OK, this is messed up also but is a lot harder to figure out what is going on.  Basically, Roger Seymour who m. Maud Esturmy did not have a daughter Isabel.¹

So who is Isabel Seymour who married John Bowles and brought Penhow Castle to the Bowles family?  Turns out she is the daughter of a different  Roger Seymour (which explains the error).  The key is to try and trace the descent of Penhow castle from the St. Maur (aka Seymour) family.²

Basically, Penhow descended through the Seymour family in a branch separate from the one you gave, to John Seymour.  John Seymour was a brother of Roger Seymour who married Cecilia Beauchamp.  This John Seymour died 24 April 1358 (Tuesday before St. Mark last past 32 Edward III – I date as 24 April 1358) seised of Penhow Castle, leaving a son and heir Roger Seymour, age 18 so born c1340).³  This Roger died leaving a daughter and heir Isabel who married John Bowles.⁴

 

So, Isabel Seymour, daughter of Roger Seymour, son of John Seymour, brother of Roger Seymour m. Cecily Beauchamp, father of William Seymour, father of Roger Seymour (incorrectly given as father of Isabel).

I hope that made sense.

 

1.  Royal Ancestry IV p. 616, SEYMOUR 15.

2.  Charles Octavius S. Morgan. Notes on Penhow castle, (1867) p. 27 

3.  Calendar of inquisitions post mortem and other ... v.10. p. 334, no. IPM 414.

4.  St. Maur, Richard Harold. Annals of the Seymours (1902):13.  

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Still going to need a couple more Bowleses.  I figure Isabel was born say 1365 so not the grandmother of the judge born 1480.  We've probably got Isabel married to her grandson at present.

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Wow! Looks like a lot of broken lines, to many for a quick fix. I will keep looking maybe something will turn up.   
Thank you so much for your comments, and the work looking these profiles up!

:-)

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Still going to need a couple more Bowleses.  I figure Isabel was born say 1365 so not the grandmother of the judge born 1480.  We've probably got Isabel married to her grandson at present.

I agree RJ, that's why I said it was hard to figure out for sure what was going on.  The transition from the Seymours to the Bowles family is very murky with the sources just saying it happened through an heiress but not laying out each generation clearly.  I just ran across a record which convinces me Isabel probably never existed.

IPM of JOHN BOWELERS, ESQUIRE E 149/125/20. Died on 12 Aug. 1420. Ralph Bowelers is his son and next heir, aged 14 .  Held the manors of Penhow and Portskewett by right of his wife JOAN.  Seems to me the secondary references have the name of the Seymour heiress incorrect.  A second IPM (writ mandamus) in 1429 gives similar information - Joan had predeceased John Bowelers and he held the lands by the courtesy of England.  A proof of age was later held for this Ralph Bowliers showing he was born 1 November 1408.

I could try to keep going but, doesn't seem worth it.

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Wow! Looks like a lot of broke lines, to many for a quick fix. I will keep looking maybe something will turn up.   

What are you looking for? You aren't restricted to what the Relationship Finder will show. 

Because of "pedigree collapse" - marriages of distant cousins - there are often several different lines from the same immigrant to the same baron - sometimes dozens.  The RF will only show one of them.  Often it picks a bad one.  The only way to make it show the good lines is to disconnect all the bad ones.