Discussion on the DNA of William de Warenne

+12 votes
1.2k views
During our Magna Carta work on this line, we came across William, who had his parents marked as "DNA confirmed". This engaged us in a conversation, and presentation of some research, but the debate goes on. With all of the DNA research that has been done on the royal family, is it possible for us to mark some of these ancestors as DNA confirmed? We need some input!
WikiTree profile: William IV de Warenne
in Genealogy Help by Robin Wedertz G2G6 Mach 1 (17.7k points)
retagged by Darlene Athey-Hill
I'm surprised there are not some distantly related Warren cousins who are willing to have their Y-DNA results associated wit their ancestry in WikiTree.
There is a Warren DNA project.  So far nobody has a match for either Richard or the Somersets.

Nobody has a working paper trail either.  None of the claimed immigrant descents stands up.  Nor does Patrice's.

I don't think we'll hear any more from Leicester about Patrice.  But the story is out there and will keep cropping up.
Sir William Plantagenet de Warren 1256 Jan 15-1286 Dec 15 Warren, Sussex bur High Altar Lewes, Reigate, Sussex, England; died before his father and therefore was not Earl of Warren and Surrey per _The Warren's and You_ by Elizabeth Ellsberry 1958 and should be confirmed by Burkes Peerage
Thank you. However, that is not the same William de Warenne that we are discussing. This one was b. 1166, d.1240.
How can I tell if my 23andme Paternal R1b1b2a1a Maternal J1c2 Gedmatch kit # M416339 , is a proof that William Warenne 1166-1240 is my 23rd Grandfather dose it match, I'm  trying now to understand Chromosome Mapping I just need a little help, well alot, Thanks

Hello Donnie,

You should have virtually the same Y-DNA as http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Blackstone-18 and all his direct paternal line descendants http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/Blackstone-18/890#Y

You should have virtually the same mtDNA as http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/KuiKendall-2 and all her direct maternal line descendants http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/KuiKendall-2/890#mt

Your 23andMe results alone can't confirm your relationship with William de Warenne .  23andMe provides Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup predictions.  You need Y-STR (Y haplotype) matching with a distant direct paternal line cousin to confirm direct paternal line ancestry.  You need mtDNA HV1&2 or full sequence matching with a distant direct maternal line cousin to confirm direct maternal line ancestry.

If your confirmed direct maternal line could connect with an ancestor who is a direct paternal line descendant of William de Warrenne. And hopefully someday, someone who is a distant direct paternal line cousin of King Richard III will test and match him which would confirm that direct paternal line. It may not happen.

Sincerely, Peter

The line you've found to Warenne is looking a bit "Unsourced" in the Harrison area, but in any case, there are several women in it.  Y-DNA only works with all-male lines.
Ok Thank's RJ Horace
The de Warren family of France including Patrice does have a well documented paternal descent from Hameline Plantagenet, 5th Comte de Warren through the 7th Comte as is well known among French nobility and was acknowledged by the Stuart royal family in exile as well as the Bourbon Kings of France of the XVII & XVIII c., the Pope etc.

Comte Raoul de Warren of this family was head of genealogical proofs for the association of French nobility (ANF).
S de Warren I'm not sure if my Foote/Blackstone family is connected I'm still trying to fugue it all out. I see two uncertains now.
S de Warren, I guess you have seen the comments on the Genealogy Medieval Google group where the same statement was made.

As they state having a lineage confirmed by the Stuart and Bourbon kings and whichever Pope is intended means very little particularly as genealogy at that time was still very much about flattery and very little about documentation and proof.

As RJ says above the DNA provided by a member of the de Warren family didn't match either Richard III or the members of the Somerset family.

2 Answers

+10 votes
 
Best answer
Given that there is a mismatch between Richard III and what should be other male descendants in the same line, and there is no real clue as to where the 'break' might be, I think there is no way William de Warenne can have his parents confirmed by DNA?

Wikitree has a connection on William's profile to the dna of Richard III, because historically they are both direct male line descendants of Geoffrey of Anjou, but genetically it could be another story.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (426k points)
selected by Andreas West
Or maybe not.

The problem now is that people will try to claim William de Warenne's yDNA is not the same as Richard's, based on false descents from Warenne.
Precisely what I kept running across. There is a ton of speculation regarding false paternal links. However, the Warenne named passed from a woman to husband when he assumed her title. Throws a wrench in the works of a DNA link based on surname.

Here's the DNA project though - https://www.familytreedna.com/public/warren/default.aspx?section=yresults
So my DNA is not the same? I don't thank I'm managing this profiles so even though I tie in,  I may just just not go on it and start working on in just yet, I got alot of profiles and just took on another group trying to fugue this Chromosome Mapping out, lol got any suggestions?
Hello Donnie,  Your Y-DNA is not the same as William de Warenne and your autosomal DNA (auDNA) is most useful within five or six generations.  William de Warenne lived about 26 generations ago.

Communicate with your cousins in GEDmatch found using their One-to-many matches feature.  Your shared segments are from shared ancestry.
I don't need to start charging anything do I,  I just don't want to be the only one building the tree to the next person if we on the wrong trai, you know what im saying right, Thank's for answering and helping me understand.
Donnie, the best policy is to look at each profile objectively, and assess both the possibility of a DNA connection, AND the likelihood of paternal error, surname changes, second marriages, and a ton of other circumstances that may change assumed parentage. You are an investigator into the great mysteries of genetic history! Always consult with people here on the forums before you go making any major changes, as sometimes what appears to be an error can be a lead to the truth!

Happy hunting!
Ok Thank's Robin Craig, I will consult with others first,  I'm sorry I just run across this and I probably should have not got involved but just all this conversation on here has actually helped me learn alot. I would also like to Thank everyone else on here, I guess sometimes it pays off to just jump right in to the middle of something that I know nothing about and and see what i can learn, now I got took to school, lol,  I love WikiTree yall some great people.

You're welcome, Donnie! Fun Fact: you and I are 14th cousins once removed on your mother's side, our common ancestor is  Christopher Tillman Reynolds ! It's always a pleasure to help out a cousin!

Robin, Don't you mean that "it throws a wench" into the works?
Robin Craig , Christopher Tillman Reynolds is a 14th Grandfather that's along time you thank we may be related to Burt Reynolds, lol  and Vic Watts remember I ask you to keep an eye on my work so I want mess nothing up, Yall have a great night
HA!!! Indeed, Vic!
I'd be cool with being The Bandit's cousin!
Yes that would be alright, Robin!
0 votes
Could a direct female descendant's DNA to William  Warenne prove anything?

Thank you!
by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 4 (46k points)
Women inherit their mother's mitochondrial DNA, which passes down through all of the generations to daughters (and sons, but they don't pass it on).  Autosomal DNA is what you get from all of your ancestors, but you can only use it to help you determine ancestry back about ten generations (and usually fewer than that).  So a direct female descendant of William wouldn't have any discernible DNA from him.

Thank you, Darlene Athey-Hill I appreciate very much you taking the time to answer my question. Now, I am wondering how a female DNA is listed on Richard III York? Did her name being listed have anything to do with them having actual DNA from Richard III York?

Thank you very much for helping me to understand DNA better, Darlene!  

Yep! They found Richard III's remains under a parking lot in 2012. His mtDNA was extracted, so there is probative evidence of his actual test results. Oops. I should have said "car park," not parking lot.  :-)

Thank you, Edison Williams for your reply. Could Richard III's 3rd cousin 15Xr and/or Richard II's 18th great granddaughter's DNA prove anything?

Appreciate your help with this question!

    

They tested female-line descendants of Richard's sister.  They aren't WikiTreers, but their mtDNA is on MitoSearch.  Profiles have been created for them and their lines of descent and their test results have been attached.

That's enough to put their mt flags on Richard's profile.  The fact that he's been dug up and tested isn't a factor in that, though it does mean that his own mt flag is there as well.

But if he had direct female-line descendants living, their mt flags wouldn't be on his profile, because they'd have his wife's mtDNA.

Thank you, RJ Horace

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