KB in suffix field prior to creation of Order of the Bath in 1725? [closed]

Question

This issue was glossed over in this G2G  about KG - I've noticed a handful of profiles which had the category Knights Companion Order of the Bath who had died prior to the creation of the order in 1725 by King George. Part of the lore was that he believed he was reviving an ancient order which never existed - KB was not an order but I think due to the special ceremony you could use the post nominal KB (at least Cokayne puts it in CP) to indicate your higher knighthood.

I went and removed both the category and the suffix for these profiles, but I'll go back and fix them once we figure this out.

I have also noticed many profiles with KG and/or KB without any category. I'll pick on Earl Henry Stanley, KG KB who needs some work anyways. I added the category Knights Companion of the Garter - maybe we can update his profile with the category and appropriate suffixes as a template?  I think Category:Knights of the Bath (1399-1725) would be an ok category to distinguish from the order w/ a blurb and instructions to use a suffix of KB (or no suffix). Or perhaps put in the existing category that its for everyone from 1399-present? 

Answer 1

I've created Category:Knights of the Bath, and I updated the other versions so they are linked together. Thanks for your input!

Comments

I also added the original set back with the new category, and found a few more via a google search.

Answer 2

Knights of the Bath existed long before the Order of the Bath was created in 1725.  I agree it is incorrect to have template called  Knights Companion Order of the Bath and include anyone before 1725.  If you really want to categorize them, there should be a separate category for KB prior to 1725.

I don't think you should be removing KB from profiles, they are for the most part accurate and as correct as the KG designation.

Comments

Re: KB suffix - I thought it was a mistake until I looked into this some more, I have a list to go back to. Another thing I noticed is that many of these profiles say: "X was invested as a Knight, Order of the Bath (K.B.).", this also needs to be edited. A different verb needs to be used instead of "invested" (created?) and its just Knight(s) of the Bath (K.B.) until 1725.

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Since Liz asked me about Richard, Earl of Worcester - here's my suggested solution:

Under Category: Honours and Awards of the United Kingdom a new Category:Knights of the Bath (1399-1725) w/ a blurb & link to the Order of the Bath.

In Order of the Bath and Companions of the Order of the Bath, a blurb w/ a link to the pre-1725 version.

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Good suggestion Kirk.  Could sure use help in this rationalisation.  The [[Category: Honours and Awards of the United Kingdom]] is a work in progress at the moment.  I linked [[Category: Order of the Bath]], which already existed to that page.  That page had content: Prior to 1815, the order consisted of a single class, Knight Companion (KB), which no longer exists. Recipients living in 1815 were reclassified as Knights Grand Cross. 

Do you think we should run the pre-1815 as a separate category or retain as is?

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Thanks Doug - let me give another explanation since its confusing.

Starting in the 12th century some Knights were termed 'Knights of the Bath' when they were knighted and this became more common in the 14th century to distinguish knights who went through an elaborate ceremony vs. knights who were just 'dubbed, and because of the connection to the monarch I would consider this "an honour".

Joe's link above to Arthur Shaw book which explains this on page xv pretty succinctly and uses that term. There was no Order of the Bath at this time so they were not companions, no officers, and no membership restrictions. They only real connection to the future order is the name.

Last Knights of the Bath were created at the coronation of King Charles II in 1661. No KB between 1661 and 1725.

In 1725, King George I created the Order of the Bath, which at first only had one membership category, Knight Companion, which used the post nominal initials that I see most often in other peerage sources, K.B. In 1815 they changed the order to have a similar hierarchy as other orders of chivalry and existing members became Knight Grand Cross of the Bath (GCB).

With dates, there's three categories:

• Knights of the Bath before 1725 (really before 1662) Initials KB
• Knights Companion of the Order of the Bath 1725-1815 Initials KB
• Knights Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath 1815-present Initials GCB (also KCB, CB)

The first one I thought should just be a subcategory of Category: Honours and Awards of the United Kingdom. The second two are subcategories of the Order of the Bath, Happy to create the category but it would be nice if the UK proj or EuroAristo would manage it.