need updates to Ufford, Barre, Cornwall

Question

Here’s an interlinked group of people who need some updates, if anyone can help with them.

Alice Ufford (Ufford-14) married first, Thomas Pabenham or Pavenham (Pabenham-13), by whom she had a son and heir, Lawrence (Pabenham-5). Thomas died in 1344, at which time his son was still in his minority. Alice then married Sir William Croyser of Stoke Dabernon (d 1387) as his first wife. He became guardian of Alice's son and she had a daughter, Elizabeth, by him. This Elizabeth married Ralph de Camoys and Edward de Kendale and was a widow (and still underage according to one source) in 1376 when Sir Thomas Barre received license to marry her and married her in 1381.

The Croyser marriage needs to be added because Elizabeth Croyser was the mother of Sir Thomas Barre (Barre-2), d. 1419, who married Alice Talbot de la Mare (Talbot-17).  Their son was Sir John Barre (needs to be added) whose daughter and heiress married Humphrey Stafford, Earl of Devon, and secondly, Thomas Bourchier, son of Henry Bourchier and Isabel of York (granddaughter of Edmund of Langley and Isabella of Castile).

Isabel was Sir John’s sole heir. He did not have a daughter named Eleanor. So the Visitation of Herefordshire is incorrect in naming the wife of Sir Richard Croft as Eleanor, daughter of Sir John Barre. All other sources say that Sir Richard married Sir John’s niece, daughter of his sister Elizabeth Barre (Barre-1) and her husband Sir Edmund Cornwall (Cornwall-17).  Eleanor (Bare-270) is probably best removed. She was not the mother of Jane Croft Darell (Croft-76) who is named in all other sources as the daughter of Eleanor Cornwall Croft (Cornwall-3).

Answer 1

Hi,

 

I am nominally a rep for Cornwall, but new in post and still getting oriented. How goes it with this one so far? I'm going to vote it up for now to see if we can't get you someone more senior, but if you've not got anywhere with it in a day or so, sing out and I'll see what (if any of it) I can help you with.

 

Good luck!

Comments

Thanks for the offer, I'm sure it will take all hands on deck to sort some of these lines out, but very worth it.

Answer 2

Hello - Thank you for your continuing research and interest in this family.  At least 2 experienced Leader members of the Euro-Aristo project are going to be looking at this entire family - one is unavailable right now due to personal reasons - but he has been alerted - and I believe we will reach a consensus about them shortly.  If you want, I can put you in touch with them.  I noticed your comments yesterday and sent a private message to these 2 Leaders about this.  You are welcome to work with the Project on this if you have the pre-1500 badge or give them your suggestions and they can insert them.

Comments

Thanks, Chet. I'm looking forward to learning more about these families. The Ufford connection is new to me.

Answer 3

Hi,

What are your sources for the information you're providing?  I appreciate having it so we can look into adding the family mentioned, but until we know the source(s), we don't know how reliable the information is.

The European Aristocrats Project is the largest and oldest project on Wikitree.  However, we have only a very limited number of people that are actively involved with the profiles.  As a result, it can take more than a day or two to work on new information.

Once I hear about the sources, I'll see what I can do.  Thanks for posting about this on G2G!

Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project, British Isles 742-1499

Comments

Hi Darlene,

The sources are fragmented. I can copy a few of them in here as a start, but because of the character restriction, will have to do it as a series of responses, unless there is a better way. If you are in US you may be able to access the snippet sources which I cannot due to Canada's overzealous copyright laws. If so pls lmk.

Starting with Alice and her two husbands, son, daughter, stepson, and sons-in-law.

Pedigree of Pabenham (gives wife of Thomas and mother of Lawrence as “dau. of Ufford.”

http://tinyurl.com/zxl4mhb

Mention that William Croiser had married Alice late wife of Thomas de Pabenham.

http://tinyurl.com/jhrwuo

Sir William's guardianship in 1345

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/beds/vol3/pp76-80

Edward III, 1327-1377 - Page 475

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Nt5XAAAAIAAJ

Great Britain. Public Record Office, ‎Sir H. C. Maxwell Lyte - 1971 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

Grant during pleasure to William Croyser, by assent and at the instant request of the king's clerk, Master John de Offord, to whom the king by letters patent granted the wardship of the lands late of Thomas de Pabenham until the lawful age of ...

Records of Huntingdonshire - Volume 3, Issue 4 - Page 13

https://books.google.ca/books?id=VmhnAAAAMAAJ

Huntingdonshire Local History Society - 1995 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

THROUGH A BRASS DARKLY The de Pabenhams of Offord Darcy by Henry Halls Laurence de Pabenham (1334-1399), ... His mother Alice had remarried before July 1347, and she and her second husband, William Croyser, sought to regain ...

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More on Alice and William. 

1346-1349 - Page 300

https://books.google.ca/books?id=XGsvAQAAIAAJ

Great Britain. Public Record Office, ‎Sir H. C. Maxwell Lyte - 1972 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

... all the lands which belonged to Thomas and which were in the king's hand by reason of the minority of Laurence, Thomas's son and heir, ... Bedford for the manors of Pabenham, Farendish and Hynewyk and the messuage and carucate in Hynewyk. ... William and Alice, Master John and the escheators of the said counties for the present and the future of the said issues from the time of Thomas's death.

 

The Manors of Suffolk: The hundreds of Babergh and Blackbourn

https://books.google.ca/books?id=6TtOAAAAYAAJ

Walter Arthur Copinger, ‎Harold Bernard Copinger - 1905 - ‎Snippet view

She married Sir Edmund de Pakenham,1 and on his death in 1332 held until 1353. 2 She had remarried Hugh de ... Sir Thomas de Pakenham enfeoffed Sir John de Ufford and others in 1355 and died in 1358. On the Originalia Rolls this year ...

Sir Thomas Barre marries Elizabeth Croyser, dau. of William and widow of Camoys and Kendale

History of Parliament (for Sir Thomas Barre, d. 1419/20 father of the Sir Thomas who married Alice Talbot)

"b.c.1349, 3rd. s. and event. h. of Thomas de la Barre† of Rotherwas, by Hawise, sis. and coh. of Sir Richard Pembridge of Ayot St. Lawrence. m. by 1381, Elizabeth (d. 14 Dec. 1420), da. of Sir William Croyser of Stoke Dabernon, Surr. by his 1st w., wid. of Sir Ralph Camoys and of Sir Edward Kendale (d.1375), of Hitchin, Herts., 1s. 1da. Kntd. by 1373.1 History of Parliament

History of Parliament (entry for Sir William Croyser the younger, son of William and his second wife, Elizabeth)

“William Croyser the younger had no claim to the extensive Northamptonshire and Bedfordshire property of his father’s first wife, Alice Pavenham,”

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/croyser-william-1415

Croyser sources here

http://www.classypages.com/FranksGenealogyPage/timeline.htm

in 1366 it was settled upon Sir William Crosier and Elizabeth his daughter, who was apparently about to become the wife of Edward Kendale, son of the before-mentioned Edward.(fn. 141) In 1373 this manor was again conveyed by Edward Kendale to Sir William Crosier and others for the purposes of a settlement. (fn. 142) Edward Kendale the younger died in 1375, (fn. 143) but before his death he apparently conveyed the reversion of the manor after the death of Elizabeth his wife to Sir William Crosier. (fn. 144) In 1376 Sir William Crosier and Elizabeth his daughter conveyed the manor to Robert Turk and Beatrice, (fn. 145) probably for life. Elizabeth wife of Edward Kendale the younger afterwards married Sir Thomas Barre, (fn. 146) and in 1391 John Grey and Elizabeth his wife, who was the widow of the late William Crosier, conveyed the reversion of the manor after the death of Elizabeth wife of Sir Thomas Barre to Sir Thomas Percy, Master William de Assheton, clerk, Thomas de Hungerford, knight, and Robert de Whitby, clerk, and the heirs of Robert. (fn. 147)

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol2/pp149-161

 

Bulletin of the Institute of Historical Research - Volume 41 - Page 147

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0QLvAAAAMAAJ

1968 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

The younger Sir Edward married Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William Croyser, settling manors in Luton and Wrestlingworth (Beds.) and Maid- croft manor inHitchin (Herts.) on his heirs by her, with reversion to Croyser. In June 1376, during the ...

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Wykeham's Register - Part 2 - Page 405

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bj0JAAAAIAAJ

Winchester (England : Diocese). Bishop (1367-1404 : William of Wykeham), ‎Thomas Frederick Kirby - 1899 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

Will of sir William Croyser, let., dated at Maydenescrofte, 10 April, 1387, and proved at Hitchin, 5 Kal. Maii ... Executors, his widow Elizabeth Croyser, sir John Croyser, kt., his son, John Boking- ham, capellanus, and William Dalby, r. of Stoke ...

Notes and Queries - Page 27

https://books.google.ca/books?id=T1kCAAAAIAAJ

1884 - ‎Read - ‎More editions

Of what family was this Elizabeth, and wby was it necessary that when she attained her majority she should release to Alice Perrers her right in tbe manor of Hitchin, co. Herts, on account of a debt of 2001. owed to Alice by Sir William Croyser 7 ...

 

Records of Huntingdonshire - Volume 3, Issue 4 - Page 13

 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=VmhnAAAAMAAJ

Huntingdonshire Local History Society - 1995 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

Huntingdonshire Local History Society ... His mother Alice had remarried before July 1347, and she and her second husband, William Croyser, sought to regain control over the issues from certain lands which would ultimately descend to ...

 

Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and Other Analogous ...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=daNLAQAAMAAJ

2002 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions

16 ELIZABETH WIDOW OF THOMAS BARRE, KNIGHT, AND OF EDWARD KENDALE, KNIGHT 797 Writ 1 Jan. 1421. ... clerk, and John Joseph, chaplain, were formerly seised in demesne as of fee of the manor ofWrestlingworth and by a ...

parish of Offord Darcy

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hunts/vol2/pp322-327

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Thanks for all of the various sources -- some of which I consider to be 'o,k.' and some not reliable.  I'm in Canada also (B.C.) so have the same problem as you with not being able to see snippet views.  However, I started researching and located some reliable sources to back up the terrific information that you provided.  I've added some of the people you've mentioned and will work on continuing it.  If you're not familiar with the soc.genealogy.medieval group, you might want to look into it (if you're 'into' medieval genealogy).  The bulk of the people on it are diehard medieval genealogists; you'll quickly learn who 'knows their stuff' on there.

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Thanks, Darlene

I'm afraid some of those links are broken, but there should be enough for a start.

Something else that will have to be looked at eventually is -- was Alice an Ufford or was she an Offord? She is presently positioned as the former but from what I have seen is more likely to be an Offord of Huntingdonshire. The name of John Offord, king's clerk (Archbishop of Canterbury elect when he succumbed to the plague in 1329) appears frequently in the dealings with Sir William. I seem to remember seeing his brother Andrew Offord mentioned once or twice also. If they are her siblings, then her relationship to Robert Ufford is in doubt, see sources below.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Dictionary_of_National_Biography_volume_42.djvu/13

http://tinyurl.com/h9kffb6

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Jim Weber has her as an Ufford.  I don't have access to the sources he mentions on Robert de Ufford's profile on his website, so I'm not sure if they show Robert with a daughter Alice.  

1. Title: Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley Editor-in-Chief, 1999, Page: 2761
2. Title: Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000, Page: XII/2:150 and XII/2:150-1

She's linked to Robert on various posts on the Gen-Medieval website also.  Until/unless someone comes up with compelling evidence to remove Alice as Robert's daughter, I believe she should remain as his daughter.

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I haven't seen anything so far to connect the Offords of Offord Daneys/D'Arcy in Huntingdonshire with the Uffords of Sussex, so hope someone can track down the references above. Am very interested to see what they are based on. Even something connecting known Uffords with the manor of Pabenham or the families of Croyser, Peverel, Engaine, Barre, Camoys, Kendale, Waleys, Pauncefoot, or de Brus would be of interest and might add weight here.

Have looked for posts on Gen-Med, but only found more confirmation that Alice was sister of the clerics John, Andrew, and Thomas, none of whom seem to be mentioned in connection with Robert (who is supposed to have had only one daughter, Eve, according to Chester-Waters) or any of his children. Will look some more, though. Must be some wills or other concrete transactions out there.

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To further confuse the matter, it looks as if John Offord, Alice's brother (in 1363 the advowson of Great Staughton was claimed by Laurence de Pabenham as nephew and heir of John de Offord*) also went by the name "John of Woodstock."** Presumably Woodstock in Huntingdonshire?

*http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hunts/vol2/pp354-369

** see calendar of the close rolls, 6 Ed. II (1312-3) "Order to discharge John Woodstock, de Offord, clerk, of the extent of the manor of Offord Daneys, co. Huntingdon, as the king committed to him the custody of the said manor, which belonged to Edmund Peverel, tenant in chief...