Is this enough to support Lejeune-69 and Lejeune-244 being the same woman?

+5 votes
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Over a year ago, I was uncertain as to whether the Catherine Lejeune (Lejeune-69) was the same Catherine Lejeune that later married Maurice Olivier and then later Benjamin Kidder. I decided at the time to set up a separate profile for the one who married Olivier and Kidder so I did so (Lejeune-274).

Now I've come across some different church records that support them being the same person. Unfortunately, I have not found the marriage record for when she married Maurice Olivier, which presumably would say she was the widow of Burns.

I'm asking for opinions as to whether this is enough information to go ahead and merge them.

The evidence falls into two main areas, the strongest being records that state where Catherine LeJeune is from.  Here is a record for a child of Burns and Catherine LeJeune which indicates she is from Pennsylvania:

FRUGE, Vigile (Pierre Antoine - native of St. John the Baptist on the Mississippi & Suzanne BORNS - of Pointe Coupee) b. 19 Sept. 1814, bt. 15 July 1815  Pats: Pierre FRUGE & Catherine DUMOULIN - from Xaintonge in France;  Mats: --- BORNS - from Ireland & Catherine LEJEUNE - from Pennsylvania;  Spons: Antoine Pierre FRUGE & Adriene YSTRE or ISTRE - wife of Jean Baptiste LACASE. Fr. Michel Bernard BARRIERE (Opel. Ch.: v.2, p.53)

and here is a record for the baptism of a grandchild of Maurice Olivier and Catherine Lejeune:

LANGLEY, William (Jean & Marie Anne OLIVIER - the first is originally from Natchez, "lieu du grand gouffre" [the place of the grand gulf - which was in the Natchez area] and the second is from Pointe Coupee) b. 8 March 1815, bt. 25 Sept. 1816  Pats: John LANGLAIS [LANGLEY] - of Philadelphia & Mary WILLEN - of Ireland;  Mats: Marie OLIVIER - from Mobile & Catherine LEJEUNE - from Philadelphia;  Spons: Celestin LAVERGNE - our Deputy at the Legislature & Helen DONAGAN, wife of William KNOX.  Fr. Michel Bernard BARRIERE (Opel. Ch.: v.2, p.88)

So they were both from Pennsylvania.

The other evidence relates to the daughter of Jean Burns and Catherine Lejeune. But first I should mention that sometimes the children of Maurice Olivier were shown with Maurice as their surname.  In the following records Suzanne Burns maiden name is given as Maurice:

FRUGE, Marie Du Carmel (Jean Pierre & Marie Du Carmel MILLER - natives of this parish) b. 25 May 1817, bt. 29 May 1817  Pats: Pierre FRUGE - from St. Jean Baptiste on the Mississippi & Suzanne MAURICE - from Pointe Coupee;  Mats: Frederic MILLER - native from Natches & Victoire MAYRE - native of St. Jean Baptiste of the Mississippi and all are inhabitants of this parish;  Spons: Frederick MILLER & Marie Victoire MAYRE, his spouse - maternal grandparents of the child.  Fr. Michel Bernard BARRIERE (Opel. Ch.: v.2, p.106)

FRUGE, Jean Pierre - native of this parish (Pierre - native of St. Jean Bpatiste on the Mississippi & Suzanne MORICE [MAURICE] - native of la pointe couppee and inhabitants of this parish at prairie Faketaic)  m. 3 Sept. 1816  Marie Carmelite MILLER - native of this parish (minor daughter of Frederic - native of Natches & Victoire MAYRE - native of St. Jean Baptiste of the Mississippi & inhabitants of this parish at Prairie Faketaic)  Wits: Joseph FRUGE, Augustin FRUGE, Frederic MILLER fils [Jr.], Jean MILLER fils [Jr.], Pierre FRUGE, NICE, William HERGEROEDER - all inhabitants of this parish.  Fr. Michel Bernard BARRIERE  (Opel. Ch.: v.1-B, p.289)

So what do you think?  Is this enough evidence to merge the two women?

 

WikiTree profile: Catherine Lejeune
in Genealogy Help by Donna Storz G2G6 Mach 2 (22.2k points)

3 Answers

+1 vote
I would say it's probably the same person, but, I would say that technically, that's probably not enough evidence
by Danny C. Alonso G2G2 (2.5k points)
+1 vote
I'd say that the likelihood of two different Catherine Lejeune's from PA appearing in the Opelousas courthouse during the same period are slim. But it does appear that there are inconsistencies in the birthdates of the children - not sure if these are resolvable.

Any luck with the PA records trying to nail more down about this Catherine Lejeune? I'd put a strong guess in that the William Hergeroeder is from Berks County, PA and related to Johannes Herrgeroeder - progenitor of all of the Harkraders and Harkriders I've researched. If you aren't finding anything in Philadelphia, you may want to try Berks.

In short, I think it's a judgment call at this point. You could always set them as unmerged matches and see if more info comes to light.

 

Cheers,

Gary
by Gary Kueber G2G5 (5.2k points)

I actually think that the years of birth for the Olivier children are too early and I know the one I created--Eleanor--- was based on estimating she was married at age 20, but I know a lot of people at the time married much earlier...like around 15 to 18.

The daughter Eleanor wed in 1790 to Jean Fruge.

The daughter Magdeleine wed in 1802 to Wm. Hayes

The son Joseph wed in 1809 to Anne Hebert

The daughter Marianne was first having children with Nicholas Fruge (no marriage record so far) in 1798.

The only children for which there are birth/baptism records place the births in the late 1770's to mid 1780's:

OLIVIER, Catherine (Maurice & Catherine LEJEUNE) bt. 30 May 1780 at age 2 yrs. & 8 days  Spons: Jean Baptiste GUILLORY & Catherine CARRIERE - represented by Marianne Montchervaux CLERMONT. Fr. L.M. GRUMEAU (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.35)

OLIVIER, Marguerite (Maurice & Catherine OLIVIER) b. -- Sept. 1785, bt. 6 Jan. 1787  Spons: Olivier RICHARD & Eleonor RIVIER. Fr. Joseph de ARAZENA (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.63)

and probably this one:

OLIVIER, Joseph (Maurice & Catherine RORION) bt. 2 Sept. 1781 at age 6 mths.  Spons: Joseph CARRIERE & Marieanne Clermont DE MONCHERVAUX. Fr. L.M. GRUMEAU (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.25)

So Catherine Lejeune's first husband, John Burns may have died when their daughter Susanne (b. 1771, bt 1772) and then as often happens the wife remarried rather quickly to Maurice Olivier.

0 votes

I would say no, it isn't enough until we can find evidence of who the Louisiana Catherine's parents were and how she got to Louisiana. I posted one record below which names her father "Pierre" which wouldn't match the PA Catherine.  Somewhere I saw that Maurice Olivier was from Mobile if that helps.

It is a plus that both records point to Pennsylvania, but, I've found several instances where states of origin were not accurately noted by the priests in Louisiana. Sometimes the courthouse records are more accurate. Here's one profile: Harrington-4059 William (Charles) (W. C.) Harrington, son of Charles and Sally Ashley was born about 1793-1796. His birthplace is given in various records as Kentucky, Georgia and the Mississippi River area (River Parishes of Louisiana).

And one more: George Faulk's [[Faulk-68]] birth place is given in his children's birth records variously as Georgia, Carolina and North Carolina. The 1850 census of Western District Ward 6, Vermillion, Louisiana, gives his birth place as South Carolina around 1762.

I found these records on the Hebert CD may or may not help.

Text: KIDDER, Benjamin - of London (dec. Jacob & Martha KIDDER) m. 21 May 1810 Catherine LEJEUNE - living in this parish (dec. Pierre & --- widow of Maurice OLIVIER) Wits: Jean FRUGE, Joseph OLIVIER, William HAY. Fr. Louis BUHOT (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.201)


LEJEUNE, Catherine - living in this parish (dec. Pierre & --- - widow of Maurice OLIVIER) m. 21 May 1810 Benjamin KIDDER - of London (dec. Jacob & Martha KIDDER) Wits: Jean FRUGE, Joseph OLIVIER, William HAY. Fr. Louis BUHOT (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.201)

FRUGE, Augustin (Augustin [marginal note corrects this to Pierre] &  Suzanne BONS [perhaps BURNS]) bt. Sunday, 9 June 1799  Pats: Pierre FRUGER & Catherine MOULINS [probably  DUMOULINS];  Mats: John BONS [BURNS] & Catherine  LEJEUNE;  Spons: Arnaud ROMARD & Sidonie DE ARBONNE  [DARBONNE]. Fr. Pedro de ZAMORA (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.214)

 

by Jacqueline Girouard G2G6 Mach 6 (63.0k points)

Thanks Jacqueline, I have the CD as well.  I am a little confused.  Who do you mean by the Louisiana Catherine?  They are both in Louisiana after being in Pennsylvania (not sure if both were in Philadelphia specifically). And why do you say the PA Catherine's father couldn't be Pierre.  I suspect you might be bringing the daughter of Maurice and Catherine Lejeune into the equation. Or that you're reading the Kidder-Lejeune marriage entry as written-- that her mother was the widow of Maurice Olivier.  I believe this was either a transcription error or an error in the writing and that it meant the woman marrying Kidder (Catherine Lejeune-Phily) was the widow of Maurice Olivier.  That's the only reason I would think that where Maurice is from would make a difference.

To recap:  

Catherine Lejeune-PA (vs Catherine-Phily) first shows up in records when the daughter of her and Jean Burns is baptized in Pointe Coupee. This is the only child I've found for them, even with looking up all of the variants of her name and her husbands name. Interestingly, this record uses her name as Jones and that she is English.  But I've seen this a time or two on Acadians who were born in the British Colonies.

BONN, Susanne (Jean & Catherine Jones, English) bt. 19 Apr 1772, bn. age 9 months, spo. Frederic Leonard & Susanne Roy (PCP-2, part 2, 125a also PCP-4, 86)

After that, she is only really mentioned in her grandchildren's baptisms. I have not found the above mentioned Susanne Burns marriage record to Pierre Fruge, but they did have children.  One thing to note is that the brother of Pierre Fruge, Jean Fruge was a witness at Catherine Lejeune-Phily's  marriage to Kidder.

Of the children of Susanne Burns and Pierre Fruge a couple do attempt to give the grandparents names:

*FRUGE, Alexis (Pierre & Susan BURNS - residents of this parish)  b. 23 Sept. 1801, bt. 21 Nov. 1801  Pats: Pierre FRUGE & Catherine DESMOULINS;  Mats: unknown;  Spons: Joseph FRUGE & Marie DESMOULINS. Fr. Louis BUHOT (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.266)

*FRUGE, Catherine (Pierre & Susan BURNS - inhabitants of this Post)  bt. 27 May 1804 at age 2 mths.  Spons: Augustin FRUGE & Marguerite OLIVIER. Fr. Louis BUHOT (Opel. Ch.: v.1-B, p.327)

Of note here is that the sponsor in the second one is the daughter of Maurice Olivier and Catherine Lejeune-Phily.

*FRUGE, Augustin (Augustin [marginal note corrects this to Pierre] &  Suzanne BONS [perhaps BURNS]) bt. Sunday, 9 June 1799  Pats: Pierre FRUGER & Catherine MOULINS [probably  DUMOULINS];  Mats: John BONS [BURNS] & Catherine  LEJEUNE;  Spons: Arnaud ROMARD & Sidonie DE ARBONNE  [DARBONNE]. Fr. Pedro de ZAMORA (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.214)

In 2 other children's cases, one of the sponsors was either Catherine Young or Catherine Lejeune.  Most likely the grandmother, I'd guess.

There were several marriages between the children of either Pierre Fruge's siblings (children of Pierre Fruge & Catherine DuMoulin) and the children of Maurice Olivier and Catherine Lejeune.---there either aren't marriage records for them on SWLR CD or the parents aren't given, but the baptism records of the children show this. 

*FRUGE, Denise [record has Dyonisia] (Nicolas & Marianne OLIVIER) bt.  Sunday, 27 May 1798  Pats: Pierre FRUGER & Catherine  DUMOULIN;  Mats: Maurice OLIVIER & Catherine LEJEUNE;   Spons: Augustin FRUGER & Marie Louise LACASSE. Fr. Pedro  de ZAMORA (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.199)

*FRUGE, Emelie (Jean FRUGER & Elanor OLIVIER) b. 28 Dec. 1797, bt.  Sunday, 27 May 1798 supplied ceremony for baptism which was  previously performed at home.  Pats: Pierre FRUGER & Catherine  DUMOULIN;  Mats: Maurice OLIVIER & Catherine LEJEUNE;   Spons: Joseph OLIVIER & Celeste WAIBLE. Fr. Pedro de  ZAMORA (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.198)

*FRUGE, Selesie (Jean FRUGER & Eleonor OLIVIER) bt. Sunday, 12 April  1800  Pats: Pierre FRUGER & Catherine MOULIN [probably  DUMOULIN);  Mats: Maurice OLIVIER & Catherine LEJEUNE;   Spons: Jean LACASE & Lucie LACASE. Fr. Pedro de ZAMORA  (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.227)

*FRUGE, Caroline (Jean & Eleonore OLIVIER - residents of this parish) bt. 18 July 1802 at age 7 mths.  Pats: Pierre FRUGE & Catherine DUMOULIN;  Mats: Maurice OLIVIER & Catherine LEJEUNE;  Spons: Francois FRUGE & Eleonore GREGSON. Fr. Louis BUHOT (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.283)

You get the idea...

This record shows that Maurice Olivier had died by 1809.

HEBERT, Anne Margueritte - living in this parish, widow of Jean Pierre BAUDIN (dec. Joseph HEBERT & dec. Jeane LAFORET)  m. 2 Oct. 1809 Joseph OLIVIER - originally from and inhabitant of this parish (dec. Maurice & Catherine LEJEUNE)  Wits: Jean FRUGE, Louis HEBERT. Fr. Louis BUHOT (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.190)

There are many other records that include the Oliviers and in-laws, etc. of Catherine Lejeune-PA

I can find only one of the baptism records for the children of Maurice and Catherine Lejeune-Phily.  It does show that this child was born about 8 years after the child of Jean Burns and Catherine Lejeune-PA.

OLIVIER, Catherine (Maurice & Catherine LEJEUNE) bt. 30 May 1780 at age 2 yrs. & 8 days  Spons: Jean Baptiste GUILLORY & Catherine CARRIERE - represented by Marianne Montchervaux CLERMONT. Fr. L.M. GRUMEAU (Opel. Ch.: v.1-A, p.35)

There are no other records that would support there being two Catherine Lejeunes in the area at the same time and unfortunately no marriage record for Olivier Lejeune or for Fruge Burns which might indicate either parentage or whether parents are deceased.  There's also no independent burial records for the parties.

It's obvious the families were intertwined.  And the fact that this entire question began when someone added new spouses to Lejeune-69 and I questioned if it was the same person. 

 

 

I thought you were wondering if you should merge the two Catherine Lejeune's and I noticed that one had parents on the profile and the father wasn't named Pierre.
I was wondering whether to merge the two Catherine Lejeune's, but where do you see a profile with parents other than Pierre?  Lejeune-244 has Pierre Lejeune  & Marie LeBlanc and Lejeune-69 has no parents listed because I don't have a record that gives her parents name.  Her only child (that I've found) is Susanne and the grandparents aren't named in her baptism record.

So given this...does your opinion change as to whether they are the same person and should be merged?
Oh, gosh, I need to take myself to bed. I was looking at the wrong Catherine Lejeune! She was also born in Pennsylvania. Instead of searching on the profile numbers, I searched for "Catherine Lejeune" and found Lejeune-371. I will look at the correct ones tomorrow when I hope the fog is cleared. So sorry, for the confusion Donna.

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