How should we categorize cities/towns in the Netherlands?

Question

For the US, Canada, UK, Ireland, etc. there are guidelines on how towns and cities should be categorized. I haven't been able to find any similar guidelines for categorization of towns in the Netherlands and browsing the categories tree it seems only very few towns seem to be categorized at all.

Answer 1

The first question is, I think, should we categorize places in Nederland? What purpose would that serve?

In the Dutch Roots project categorization at the province level was deemed sufficient. That categorization is done by adding the Dutch Roots template to profiles.

Comments

Thanks for the answer.

Maybe the decision to not go further than the province level for The Netherlands should be mentioned in the style guide for Categories then?

Also, there are some towns that already have their own category, like Geldrop. What should happen to those?

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As Jan explained already, the Dutch Roots Project has a Template that is already categorizing profiles by Birth year Province and Country, it has more options, which are not all activated yet, but one is to categorize them all by place as well. And here you can find all Dutch categories  

We decided to not activate the place (yet) because this isn't always very easy or clear and because of that could cause many wrong categories being created, place names changed (different spellings) or just vanished. So it can be hard to decide what name (place category) members should use : Leiden, Leyden, 's Gravenhage, Den Haag, Zwolle , Swolle , Swoll etc. . So to keep things and the template easy to use for all members we decided to not activate the option place (category) of our template,. And yes maybe you're right it should be mentioned in the style guide for categories, so I'll ask if this is possible. 

The categorization project is working on categories, so before adding or creating new ones it's always best to first ask them if it's ok and if and where maybe you can find them if they already are present.

If categories are correct, they can remain if not see here: Categorieën verwijderen it's part of the Project Nederlands Portaal Joop is coordinating and Joke I don't know if you're Dutch , you're name sounds very Dutch ? Than maybe you'ld like to join the Dutch Roots Project as well ? 

We have a great and enthusiastic team of members and we all are working together on getting all Dutch profiles sourced and improved, duplicates merged etc., also every month a Dutch Roots challenge is organized by Astrid which is a great way to get profiles connected or sourced in no time ! 

And of course if you have questions  just ask :)

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So it can be hard to decide what name (place category) members should use : Leiden, Leyden, 's Gravenhage, Den Haag, Zwolle , Swolle , Swoll etc. 

in a Wiki you use hatnotes, redirects, disambigous pages to explain that a place can have different names

 

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Yes I understand it Magnus, but we try to keep things KISS ..so a template that's easy to use for all Project members, beginners and more experienced ones, if we would activate the place option, than we probably would end up with a lot of incorrect ones because not everyone would use the same spelling or people are not going to add/use the template because they find it difficult to use, (we have to fill in the places and stuff ourselves) , so to prevent a lot of maybe wrong/different spelled places (categories) is why we now decided to first see how the template is working and if people are adding it to their sourced and  improved profiles without the place category activated . 

Members can fill in the template and add the places as well though, than if in future we do activate the other options (categories) profiles automatically will be added to the proper place categories  (if they entered the correct place names) 

 

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Just out of curiosity

What is the added value of using a template for adding a location category?!?! i add location categories for all locations a person has lived in....

 

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It's the project template, our project has three sub projects (because of the huge amount of Dutch profiles) :

* (Born) Pre-1700 (Nederlanders voor 1700)

* (Born) 1700 until 1811 (Nederlanders 1700-1811)

* (Born) After 1811  (Nederlanders na 1811) 

and the same for Dutch Roots immigrants-emigrants (so same time frames) 

They all automatically (if people added the province) show up in the proper Province . So this is where we start and where we can find them all, of course some are categorized more already by members who know how to, but if they didn't we can work on them and add more categories if it's needed . 

But I do know what you mean : residences Antoinette Bourgignon 1616-1680 All places are known and added including events, quite interesting :)

 

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Yes, I'm Dutch.

I guess I could join the Dutch Roots Project, but I doubt I would be of much use right now, since I want to focus on getting the information I already have in my genealogy program into wikitree (by hand, not gedcom, since it needs cleaning up) and that might take months (or longer).

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Er is informtie beschikbaar in het Nederlands over een aantal onderwerpen van Wikitree zoals het inrichten van profielen, opmaak, bronnen vinden en plaatsen etc.

Information is available in Dutch on various topics from Wiki Tree such as setting up profiles, layouts, find and add sources etc.

 Zie/See:  http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Nederlands_Portaal

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That's exactly what we all are working on, so you're very welcome Joke ! :D

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Good question Jan - without going into the WikiTree semantics and etiology of categorization - I had to make for my work (here in the Netherlands) an index of cities, towns and place and I found that WikiPedia had a very workable system - some times though some "gemeenten" had fused together ... old names become lost. There must be thousands upon thousands of little hamlets. I believe the Frisian old word for "administrative fusion" is "wouden" - Venewouden was the result of such a "wouden" (but then I'm not Frisian though my surname is the result of a toponymic conflation ...  - if you "marry" Feanwâldsterwâl to Veenwouden in the Lingua Franca of the late 17th / early 18th centuries, you get van der Walt ...:-)

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I have over 1000 Dutch ancestors that I have found in various records. In many cases I am the only person on WikiTree who has these ancestors.  I am the only one who has the time and passion to improve most of the shared profiles..  I am currently comparing each profile to original sources and databases, making corrections to the profiles, and adding the sources.  I am also adding profiles for all of the children / siblings of each person in my genealogy.  Assuming each couple averages 6 children, that brings the number of profiles I'm working on to over 3000.  With that huge number it would eventually make sense to break each province into areas at some time in the future.

But then someone would need to organize what area is what, provide maps and lists for us so we can figure out which area our city / town / village is in, and show us how to spell these places.  Then I would need to go back to all 3000+ profiles to see if I need to make corrections.  This takes a lot of time.

I hear some people suggesting we add several fun things to each profile.  I like the idea, and if I had time to add these things I would.  But it already takes me 10 - 15 minutes a profile to double check spellings of names and add baptism, marriage and death sources if everything goes smoothly.  Then there are church membership lists, tax lists, finding & recording the spouses and children of siblings, etc.  With 3000 - 4000 profiles I would need to spend between 600 and 1000 hours on them.  This is already staggering to me.   

Therefore I like Bea's suggestion - KISS.

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Thank you Bertram, my thoughts exactly and also why we try to keep things simple and easy (not too complicated), our priority is of course to get them all sourced and improved and once that's done and if we have some extra time, we, or others, will and can of course try and add maybe some extra info, categories. Anything and everything to make sure the profile is improved and a great monument, enriched and with some depth if possible, for our ancestors.

We all can only spend the amount of time we have, some work on profiles once a week, some every day and it's all equally appreciated, we all are volunteering and love what we do and of course it's also very important we all are having fun and enjoy Wikitreeing together as a team/group of members from all over the world !

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@Magnus

The advantages of using a template to apply a place category are

1) it helps to ensure better consistency (of punctuation and spacing) so that you avoid some people adding people to categories for "Gelderland,Nederland", and others creating categories for "Gelderland Nederland" while others create "Gelderland, Nederland" - it doesn't help with spelling errors but those are usually easier for the user to notice. Since redirects do not work with categories (you can redirect the category page itself but the backlinks to profiles will not appear on the redirect target page) it saves some manual 'fixing' of avoidable but common errors.

2) As already alluded to, the Dutch Roots template allows people to add more information than is currently used (municipality, etc.) When the province categories get too large a single change to the template page can recategorize every profile where the information has already been 'captured' - then the only thing that needs to happen is to create the category page for each municipality.

3) Also note that the Dutch Roots template is not per se placing profiles into the 'true' location hierarchy, it is placing them in a project/sub-project hierarchy that groups profiles only by their place of birth and by a specific range of years reflecting the structure of the project.

Answer 2

Beyond the question is whether it is useful. There is already categorized part of Dutch places, particularly Friesland.

Comments

it is useful you add context and can add specific sources to a profile with a category explaining or having sources about

• a place 
• an event 
• a profession

See video from Future Learn the value of adding context in genealogy adding depth and richness

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We now have all profiles (the sourced ,improved templated ones) categorized by Province/Country/Colony and time frames: Pre-1700 , 1700-1811, 1811 until now.

Also these categories probably would apply only once a profile is improved and has sources, there's a huge amount of Dutch profiles, so our priority now is to first get them all sourced and improved and than step two add templates or categories or as you call it depth and richness :) 

I know and love the videos you added to some of your profiles, they sure are great (to actually see where someone was born, living) so it's not because we don't want depth and richness for our profiles, it's only to keep things KISS and easy for all project members. If people find things (template) difficult to use they probably never will use it ... 

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Kan ik in deze Templates ook provincies en plaatsen uit de tijd van de Zeventien provincies invoeren zoals West-Vlaanderen  en Brugge?

Can I enter in  these templates also provinces and places from the time of the Seventeen Provinces  as West Vlaanderen and Brugge?

 

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@ Joop Ja dat kan wel , maar die moeten dan allemaal nog wel ''gemaakt '' (''geactiveerd'') worden , net zoals we die van de Provincies ook allemaal al voordat de template geintroduceerd, gemaakt hebben om het voor iedereen gemakkelijk te maken. Dus ..als je zin en tijd hebt ? ;)

Yes it's possible but we would have to create all categories (and ''activate'' them), just  like we created all categories for the Provinces and Colonies before the template was released , to make it easy for all members . So if you have some time and feel like it ? ;)

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@Bea,

Zou dat met alle plezier doen maar het ontwerpen en bewerken van templates is toch voorbehouden aan leaders?

Would do with pleasure but the design and editing of templates is still reserved for leaders?

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In the Dutch Roots template, besides 'provincie' I also had to put in 'regio' 'gemeente'en 'plaats' That was for me Randstad, Zuid-Holland, Rotterdam and Rotterdam wijk 7.

And now I find my name only in
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Nederlanders_uit_Zuid-Holland_na_1811 .
What is done with 'regio' 'gemeente' and 'plaats'?

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I think a categorization into provinces and possibly large cities is sufficient. Municipalities record here is complicated by the many municipal reorganisations since 1798. All villages and hamlets categorize the Netherlands seems unnecessary to me.

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@ Joop, sorry had niet gezien dat je ook de categorieen voor grote steden had genoemd en eventueel aan wilde maken, en je maakt geen nieuwe template hoor, je maakt alleen de categorie voor die Provincies die je toegevoegd (zeventien provincies) wilt hebben.

Zoals ik al zei en dit is meteen  antwoord op jou vraag @ Pierre : 

* De template maakt op dit moment alleen de categorie voor het geboortejaar en de Provincie, de plaats, regio en gemeente kun je al wel invullen, maar die zijn nog niet geactiveerd (werken nog niet en maken dus ook nog geen categorieen) als iedereen dit wel graag geactiveerd wil hebben of denkt dat dit nuttig of handig is, dan kunnen we bijvoorbeeld de plaats ook wel activeren. En omdat ze dus nog geen categorieen maken zul je het profiel alleen terug kunnen vinden in de Provincie die je hebt ingevuld. 

Dat betekent dan wel dat al die plaatsnaam categorien dan nog eerst gemaakt en geactiveerd moeten worden (door de categorie [[Category:Dutch Roots Project]] aan de pagina van die categorie toe te voegen) en we moeten dan ook allemaal duidelijk afspreken hoe de categorie moet worden gemaakt en of we dus zoals jij nu voorsteld alleen voor de grotere steden een categorie gaan maken of voor elke stad en elk dorp, ook de dorpen en steden die nu niet meer bestaan of een andere naam hebben inmiddels. 

En of we voor de plaatsen bijvoorbeeld gewoon een  [[Category:Rotterdam]] aan gaan maken of dat we net als bij de provincies een [[Category:Nederlanders uit Rotterdam na 1811]] en dit dan dus ook op die manier voor de andere sub projecten [[Category:Nederlanders uit Rotterdam voor 1700]] etc. gaan maken. 

Hoewel ik denk dat de plaatsnamen wel gewoon als [[Category:Plaatsnaam]] gemaakt zullen kunnen worden, omdat ze door de Provincie categorien al aan het juiste tijdperk worden toegevoegd (de template is dan een 3 in 1 template natuurlijk. 

Dus @Joop categorieen voor de eventueel nu nog niet aanwezige Provincies kun je wel maken en activeren als ze er nog niet zijn, maar de categorieen voor de plaatsnamen nog niet en als we ze maken is het handiger om ze dan dus ook meteen te maken in drievoud in elk geval moet de categorie voor alle Provincies, wel als volgt gemaakt worden voorbeeld :

*  [[Category:Nederlanders uit Zuid-Holland voor 1700]] , 

* [[Category:Nederlanders uit Zuid-Holland 1700-1811]]  

* [[Category:Nederlanders uit Zuid-Holland na 1811]]  

En dit moet je dan dus op deze manier doen voor alle Provincies die je nu nog mist en toe wilt voegen of maken. Als mensen dan die Provincie in de template invullen, worden profielen automatisch toegevoegd aan de juiste categorie en het juiste tijdperk. 

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@ Pierre . Die zijn nog niet actief (nog niet aan gezet zeg maar) en maken dus nog geen categorien) , zie het andere uitgebreide antwoord .

Maar dat is dus in het kort, waarom je jezelf nu alleen in de categorie Provincie ziet.

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@ Joop, sorry did not see you also mentioned the categories for major cities and possibly wanted to create them, and you're not creating a new template, you only create the categories for those Provinces that you also want to have added (seventeen provinces).

As I said, and this answers your question as well @ Pierre:

* The template is currently only creating a category for the year of birth and the province (adding the profiels to these categories we already created), the city, region and municipality we can add/fill in, but are not yet activated (not working and  therefore won't create categories) if everyone wants to have these enabled or think this is help- or useful, we can for example also activate just the place. And because they don't create categories your profile can only be found in the Province you have entered @Pierre.

This does mean though, all town/place categories still have to be created and activated (by adding the category [[Category: Dutch Roots Project]] and the province categories to the page for that category) and we should therefore all agree on how or what category should be created for places, and if, like you suggest Joop, we only create them for the larger cities or for every town and village, so also the villages and towns that no longer exist or are renamed now.

And if, for places we only create a simple [[Category: Rotterdam]] or similar like the provinces categories we now have [[Category: Dutch Rotterdam after 1811]] and it then also has to be created that way for the other sub projects [[Category: Dutch Rotterdam 1700]], etc.

Although I think for places a simple [[Category: City]] can be created, because they already are added to the appropriate time and province categories.(the template than is a 3 in 1 template of course)

So @Joop categories for any still not present Provinces you can create and activate if they are not present yet, but categories for places isn't possible yet, and if we are going to create them, it is easier to create them in triplicate. Every new Province category has to be created and look like the following example:

*  [[Category:Nederlanders uit Zuid-Holland voor 1700]] ,

* [[Category:Nederlanders uit Zuid-Holland 1700-1811]] 

* [[Category:Nederlanders uit Zuid-Holland na 1811]]  

And this for all Provinces you still miss and want to add or create. If people then add these Provinces to the template, profiles are automatically added to the appropriate category (+ the right time).