Are Elizabeth and Eleanor sisters, or the same person?

+6 votes
124 views
We have come across an interesting merge proposal. There are sources for both views, and I can't make a call on this alone! The Peerage says this is one woman, who married twice and had children by both. However, the different birth and death dates suggest 2 different women. Can anyone find a better source and help us make a good call?

Elizabeth's profile - Grey-1167

Peerage - http://www.thepeerage.com/p4794.htm#i47936

Thanks for your help!

R2
WikiTree profile: Eleanor Arundell
in Genealogy Help by Robin Wedertz G2G6 Mach 1 (17.7k points)
edited by Robin Wedertz
The Peerage website uses 1 source for the marriage to Sir John Arundell, and a totally different source for the marriage to the Earl of Kildare, and there appears to be no crossover between the two.  This might indicate that  we are talking about 2 different events that aren' connected.

3 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer

Hi Robin; this one is confusing.  There certainly seem to have been two different daughters to Sir Thomas Grey; possibly both named Elizabeth.  The one that married Sir John Arundel appears to have died c. 1503 as he remarries, to Katherine Grenville.  He, Sir John, died in 1545 and, on his memorial brass (a copy is on wikipedia) is a lady called Elizabeth Grey.  The Brass was created 40+ years after she had died. Some sources, Burke noticeably, called her Eleanor, maybe simply to distinguish her from another daughter.  As she had three children with Sir John it must be assumed she died c. 20 years old.  The other daughter, known to be Elizabeth, was born c. 1497, and thus 6 when her sister died.  This lady married Gerald Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare, about 1522, as his second wife and some considerable time after the death of her sister.  This lady, Elizabeth, was alive in 1548 and well after her husband died in the Tower.

Thus it would seem there are two ladies; one born c. 1485, d. 1503/5 and another born, c. 1497, d. c. 1550.  It is possible they were both named Elizabeth as this was the name of Sir Thomas' mother but wikitree, like Burke, differentiates one by naming her Eleanor.

by Doug Straiton G2G6 Mach 2 (20.6k points)
selected by Maggie N.
Hi Robin; sorry, you were also looking for a source.  Try this one: Sir John Bernard Burke; A genealogical history of the dormant, abeyant, etc.  Here is a link:  https://archive.org/stream/agenealogicalhi00burkgoog#page/n267/mode/1up
Excellent! Thank you for your time and expertise.
+5 votes

The quick answer to this is NO they should not be merged, they are in fact sisters.  Thomas Grey by his second wife Cecily Bonville had 7 sons and 7 daughters, all given by Richardson.

Sons: Edward, Thomas, Richard, John, Anthony, George and Leonard.

Daughters: Cecily, Bridget, Dorothy, Elizabeth, Margaret, Elizabeth, and Mary.

Of the two Elizabeth’s, the first married as his second wife Gerald FitzGerald 9th earl of Kildare and died after 1548.

The other Elizabeth is usually called in sources Eleanor, leading to the confusion on wikitree.  In fact, Richardson calls her Eleanor in all of his first edition books (Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry), but in his Royal Ancestry series has switched over to calling her Elizabeth. History of Parliament calls her Elizabeth.  IMO, she is actually Eleanor, however she is incorrectly called Elizabeth on her monumental brass leading to the confusion.  She married John Arundell of Lanherne in 1496, was living in 1502 and dead by 7 December 1503 when John Arundell had a papal dispensation to remarry.

Notes on the profile of Elizabeth Grey-1167 indicating they are the same person need to be erased/rewritten.

Royal Ancestry I:436 (BONVILLE 13:  William Bonville m. Katherine Neville)

Royal Ancestry II:168-169 (CHIDIOCK 16: John Arundel m. Elizabeth Grey)

Royal Ancestry III:161-164 (GROBY 13: Thomas Grey m2. Cecily Bonville)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Grey,_Countess_of_Kildare

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Grey  

by Joe Cochoit G2G6 Pilot (203k points)
+5 votes
I downloaded her father's will, it'll take a while to transcribe, but I don't think it's going to shed any light.

Perhaps he named one Elizabeth after his mother and one after his half-sister - presumably a unique case (for England) of mother and daughter both being Queen Consorts.

Incidentally Richardson names John Arundell's 2nd wife as Jane Grenville, though most people show Catherine.
by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot (561k points)

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