Moytoy's our Native American Ancestor's [closed]

Question

Due to discovering the inaccuracies in the Shawnee Heritage books I am looking for your help to sort out the fact and fiction of the 3 Moytoy profiles we have.

Please do not change details on the profiles themselves but feel free to add anything you have here. Sources are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

I have also put some feelers out to a few tribal historians to see i they can help.

Moytoy-1, Moytoy-12, and Moytoy-173

Comments

I am just learning of Shawnee connections through marriages into Kirkland families.  Richard Snowden Kirkland, Sr. married Elizabeth Sibbel Odom Grosse (1730-1770.  They had a son, Benjamin Moses who married Alcey (Choctaw) Odom.  Son Rueben 1755-1822, married Sarah Mary Clark, their daughter Lydia was my 4th ggm.  I wish to know more.  One "expert" said the Kirklands were Lumbee Indians.  I have no proof,\.  229/712-9579

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No one in this family was Native American.  All were white people.  These are just jumbled undocumented trees from the Internet. Richard Snowden Kirkland lived in Maryland and Virginia, his wife was named Mary, possibly Brown.  The Choctaw lived in what are now Alabama and Mississippi, nowhere near Virginia.  The Lumbee did not exist until the 19th century; they are not a tribe, they are remnant mixed blood descendants of Native American tribes that ceased to exist in the 1700’s.

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Hi,

I hope I can help w/some info that I am aware of for you. I have a direct connection with the Kirkland line, they were white and I believe from England thou not sure. The line ends w/Robert and Mary Kirkland my 8th ggparents. It's not Benjamin Moses that married Alice Odom, that is thier son. Benjamin Harrison Kirkland is Alice Odom spouse. They are my 5th ggparents. Apparently, Benjamins Father, Richard Snowmen Kirkland married, whom I believe is the sister of Alice Odom, Elizabeth Sybil Odom. Both Alice and Elizabeth, From what I could find, are Native American. Possibly Shawnee, Cherokee or Choctaw. Thier ansectry appears to Cherokee and Shawnee. As I get further in the past the more unsure I am due to the line of ansectry and no sources to verify. The Dawes Rolls don't go back far enough for me to try to trace.

I hope this info is helpful. Anything I have beyond Benjamin H. Kirkland and Alice Odom Kirkland has not been verified but I do have a DNA connection to them..

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I'm sorry, but none of these people have any Native American connection,  this is all a 20th century Internet myth, spread when people copy erroneous and/or fictional trees over and over.  These folks have profiles on Wikitree.

Answer 1

This is the latest I have on Ama-edohi Moytoy Emperor of the Cherokee.

His father's name as I recall doesn't mean rainmaker or shorten to Moytoy the 1st or any other version of Moytoy as the Emperor was the first and only that I know of to bear this name, I think his name has something to do with the divining stick and water...

Emperor Moytoy
Birth 1660 • Running Water Village, Tennessee, United States
Death 1741 • Died in battle

Father: Chief Wrosetasatow
Birth 1635 • Shawnee, Frederick, Virginia, United States
Death JAN 1693 • Cherokee, Washington, Tennessee, United States

Mother: Locha Quatsy Cornstalk (Shawnee)
Birth 1640 • Shawnee Nation, Frederick, Virginia, United States
Death 1692 • Overhills, Great Tellico, Tennessee, United States

Family 1 : Nancy Cornstalk (Shawnee)·
Birth 1664 • Running Water, Tennessee, United States

MARRIAGE: 1678, Running Water Village, Tennessee + White Owl CARPENTER + Savannah Tom CARPENTER + (Adopted) Raven Of Hiwassee Cornstalk + Quatsis CARPENTER +(Adopted) Waapehti “Swan” Cornstalk + (Adopted) Oshasqua Cornstalk + (Adopted) Old Hop Cornstalk + (Adopted) Tikami “April” Cornstalk

Emperor Moytoy in 1695 adopted - Old Hop & Raven of Hiwassee, and their two sisters Tikami “April” Cornstalk  & Waapehti “Swan” Cornstalk, after their parents…
Chief Misahpelewa Big Turkey Cornstalk
Birth 1660 • Running Water Village, now, Tennessee,
Death 1695 • Hiawassee, Towns, Georgia, United States

Chalakatha Hopia Shawnee Bear Clan
Birth 1664 • Cherokee, Cherokee, South Carolina, United States
Death 1695 • Hiawassee, Towns, Georgia, United States

…were killed by Catawaba Raiders.  Emperor Moytoy was told about their parents death, and none of the other people would to take them in. Emperor Moytoy went to Upper Hiwassee and brought the children home where he raised them as his own.

Chalakatha Hopia was Pasmere Carpenter’s daughter and therefore related to the children.

Comments

Thank you Barry, can you cite your sources for this information?

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Here is one site but it leaves out Moytoy's father, Wrosetasatow and doesn't include Old Hop's Biological mother and father nor his other adopted children and has a few incorrect information as well... http://americanindianregistry.org/genealogy/Example_Only__CherokeeHeritage/ppl/2/c/c89322f79583d64bec2.html

 

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I believe there was 5 adopted children but I cannot find the name of the 5th child. I have found this article that might explain the 5th child...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attakullakulla

Attakullakulla who became the defacto Emperor for a short time after Emperor Moytoy's death until Old Hop "Kanagatucko" an adopted child became Emperor.

Attakullakulla, who the english called Little Carpenter went in Emperor Moytoy's stead in 1730 to England where he met his future wife, Susan Ward, a lady in waiting in the royal court. He had returned again later on to England and instead of greeting the King with proper English royal custom he greeted him with a Cherokee hug and was shunned by the royal court.

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Altho this page says he was the nephew of Kanagatucko...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanagatucko

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Last one for a while I promise... It's a book but can be read online on google titled The Cherokees and Their Chiefs: In the Wake of Empire...

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZIn2uMVw_H8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

It explains the conflics between the full bloods in the north and the mixed bloods in the southern parts of the Cherokee Nation who knew how to speak, read, write and do math thereby becoming a great asset to the Nation in the trade with the English and sometimes French. (Trader Tom) It also covers the Chiefs known at the time the English first arrived and the initial ways of choosing Chiefs or leaders which was the son of the oldest daughter. It mentions a Nancy Ward which I know Attakullakuulla married a Ward he met in England during he visits there, I think her name was Susan?? But it says she thought many how to speak, read, etc...

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See, this is where Im having trouble with some of your sources. Where is it that he (Attakullakulla) married a Susan Ward? Youve stated these relationships but the sources you provide are not confirming that. Can you help me out here?

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I don't remember the initial source but here is what I found just now and I may have been wrong on who married the lady in waiting and it seems her name was Lucy not Susan/

http://www.marcellasfamily.com/earlycherokeehistory.html

NANCY WARD was born in Chota
around 1738 which was located in the North Georgia Mountains.
All three sources agree she was the daughter of Tame Doe, but
they disagree as to who her father was.  Haywoods History of
Tennessee, says she was a pure Cherokee.  Pat Alterman says
her father was a Delaware Indian.
    
The best and most interesting story comes from King and
Adams, true or not it is interesting.  Here it is. While
Oconostota was in London in 1730, he met and married Lucy
Ward, a lady-in-waiting to the Queen of England.  She was the
daughter of Edmund Ward.  Her brother was Frances Ward and
was the husband of Tame Doe.  By coming to American and
living on the Indian Reservation, Lucy had a chance to be
near her brother and to teach the Cherokees her religion.
Tame Doe and Lucy gave birth the same cold night, both having
daughters.  Lucy's died, Tame Doe, Attakullakulla and the mid
wife didn't want to anger or hurt Oconostota's feeling,
decided to say Tame Doe's baby died.  Tame Doe became more
than an aunt to her and taught her the Indian beliefs.  Lucy
taught her daughter to read and write the English language as
well as the white man's religion which included caring for
all people.  This would pay off twice when she warned the
settlers.  Nancy found out Tame Doe was mother, when Bryant
Ward asked for his niece's hand in marriage.  Attakullakulla
told her to ask her mother, Tame Doe.
     
During her early teen years, she married King Fisher, a
member of the Deer Clan.  Their first child, Catherine, was
born about 1753 just about the time war started between the
Cherokees and the Moskogee or Creek Indians.  This was part
of the French and Indian War, with the British supporting
them and the French the Creek.  Catherine later married Ellis
Harlin, and they had many descendants.

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I apologize for my memory. As in my profile, I am a disabled Marine and victim of the water contamination at Camp Lejeune, N.C. I have remaining 6 blood clots on my left and 1 on my right jugular veins inside my brain for the past 5 years and has left me with among other brain damage, memory loss. So some of the details of what I've been told or what I've learned may be different, as in this link... http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Oconostota_Moytoy_(3)

I had remembered Kanagatucko having become the White Chief after only a few years of Attakullakulla's attempt to rein but this link claims he ruled until his death and Oconostota took his place???? I wanted to get all of this down before I lost all mental capacity but that time may have past. Besides it has taken forever to try and get my tree online and I had to concede to accept matches even though they contained erroneous information or married names followed by "formerly" maiden name. I will take a year to get all these managers to correct these mistakes and I'm not sure I have a year left on this earth. I will add before I go that de Soto made his way to the tip of North Carolina back in the 1460's I believe and may explain how I have 3 ~ 9% Iberian blood in my DNA????? I also have Meso-American Indian, South American Indian, Arctic-American Indian and Siberian. I'm not sure if the Meso and South were through migration or brought by the Spaniards. Good luck in your projects. Goodbye!

Barry Chapman

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This source confuses Oconastota with Attakullakulla as the one who went to England based on your prior info. We also question the assertion that Tame Doe was the mother of Nancy Ward. Where did the author get this information? Why does your source contradict your assertions?

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I understand. I have a lot of military friends and family and know quite well about the water contamination. For the most part I am playing devils advocate. Prove the contradictions to me. Im trying to get a feel for where your info comes from but the sources are not matching up.

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Most of the Last Name at Birth (the Formerly) should be Moytoy or Cherokee, with a few exceptions.

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If you would like you can send me a copy of your gedcom to my email address and I will load it and look at all the details to find sources that confirm or refute them. This will at least help to keep your valuable research alive. Thank you.

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There were 7 minor Chiefs who went in the delegation so it's possible they both went. If you go to the link the story is on she says it's one of the stories  and there are people who disagree with who the father but not mother of Nancy Ward meaning I guess Tame Doe is considered her mother. The story I originally had that contained the information of the 5 adopted children came from a family bible, the story about Attakullakulla, I could be mistaken but I was sure it was him that married the lady in waiting.

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Attakullakulla went in Moytoy's stead to England as his wife was ill and he could not go.

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http://biography.yourdictionary.com/nancy-ward

As a child Nancy Ward was known as "Tsituna-Gus-Ke" (Wild Rose). Her mother, Tame Doe, was a member of the Wolf clan and the sister of Attakullacull (another source says she was the sister of Oconostota), a Cherokee chief. Although there is separate tradition that Ward's father was a member of a Delaware tribe, most sources seem to agree that she was the daughter of Francis Ward, the son of Sir Francis Ward of Ireland. According to some sources, Francis Ward married Tame Doe after settling in the Tyger River area of present-day Spartanburg County, South Carolina. There is also a tradition that Francis Ward was eventually banished from the Cherokee nation. According to Harold W. Felton, writing in Nancy Ward, Cherokee, Ward learned both the Cherokee and English languages from her mother.

Early in her life, Ward is said to have had a vision of spirits helping her find her way home after she had become lost. After that time she became known as "Nanye'hi," which means "One who is with the Spirit People." She subsequently married a Cherokee warrior by the name of Kingfisher, a member of the Deer Clan. Felton says they had two children, a boy named Fivekiller and a girl named Catharine.

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In any case Nanye'hi never married Emperor Moytoy and none of the children listed seem to be his or any of his adopted children. Cherokee have never to my knowledge named there children after themselves having a first and second like Moytoy I and Moytoy II. Moytoy has been used as a surname (since Cherokee had no surnames but instead used clan names) but nothing more other than misinformation from places like ancestry.com. Moytoy did marry a Nancy but she was a Shanee. When the Iroquois pushed the Cherokee west it split the Shawnee Nation into north and south. Cherokee invited the Shawnee to live next to them as a buffer to the Catawba tribe and to secure their alliances High Chiefs took Shawnee brides and there lies your Cherokee/Shawnee connection. It is also why Moytoy took in the 5 adopted children when Shawnee Chief Big Turkey and Chalakatha were killed by Catawba raiders as he was related to them. I've been asked and have provided many sources but I have to ask where have the members of this site gotten their sources besides Ancestry?

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There was at least with the Shawnee, name similarities, Big Turkey, Stalking Turkey, Standing Turkey...

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Hi Barry, just letting you know I havent forgotten about this. Its going to take time to sort out all the inaccurate information weve discovered over the past year or so. Thats why the sources are so important. If I change anything without a valid source, Im quite sure I will never hear the end of it. Thats why Im being so persistent about accurate sources for each change that gets made. So if I add, change a mother I need a source for that. If I add a husband, I need a source. Do you understand what Im saying?

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I too have an interest in this lineage. My oldest known ancestor was a Moses Odum  who died in Northampton Co. N.C. in 1792. Born abt. 1711-1726.Wife was Rachael (unknown) .They had a daughter named Ruth Odum Moore mentioned in the will, From the Barnes website is listed a Moses AKA Emperor Moytoy Mishapelawa Big Turkey Hop Cornstalk Odum, Shawnee War Chief, Bear Clan. b.1675-  d. 1735. It listed him as having a son Moses and the daughter Mary as well as some of the NA  children named above.

What is interesting is in my known Moses Odum's will, he gives to his Son Josiah, his great coat??? and one hackle. (feather). Apparently that (one hackle) implied something of personal importance to him.

There is also another statement in the will that is difficult to decipher because of its hand written style, that seems to mention "children in the wild who are lost".

Somewhere, I also saw the lineage showing Cornstalk Odum's NA father listed a William Odum and then NA grandfather as a William Odum, both with NA names.

I have found a William Odum from Dublin,Ireland who arrived, without any family, in Norfork,Va. around 1620. Some scant records of him shows a land purchase, and some judgement of debt or legal issue. No further information has been found, and he simply disappeared.

Read some of the history of that time stated that many of the young immigrants of the day, rejected the difficult labor of plantation life and spent their time exploring the wilderness and hunting and fishing etc..., and most likely came in contact with some of the tribes and were either captured or voluntarily joined with them. Could be said of some who were fleeing the law too. LOL.

That could explain why many families history claim NA heritage, but not NA  DNA. Also, white captives may have married other white captives who had adopted NA names. Think a  " Dances with Wolves" scenario.

 

 

Also, the Shawnee were notorious for raiding settlers and taking women and children captive. So the possibility that young William took up with the Shawnee, married a white captive and was given an honorary title as Emperor Moytoy may only be my imagination but solving this dilemma is a study in progress.

Any thoughts or comments will be appreciated . Not sure this adds any "creditable source", but may be the Odum connection to the Shawnee Barnes geni.

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Don, I believe we are branches of the same tree,  Moses is my oldest ancestor in the Odom tree and I’ve hit a wall as well.

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Moses Odum has no Indian connection that I can find.  I’m sorry, but all that Shawnee stuff you find on Ancestry is complete fiction.  Northhampton County, where Moses died is right on the Virginia border, so you might look for records in nearby Virginia counties.  North Carolina has good land records, and he owned quite a bit of land when he died, so that would be another good place to look.  There was no one named Odum among the early Jamestown settlers.

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Don, Moses Odom Moytoy is my 8th great grandfather. I too am interested in finding out about this. There is Native American in my DNA As well as my cousins who are also are related to Moses so this explain a lot. Any new findings?

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Nanyehi  = ᎾᏅᏰᎯ: "One who goes about"

The one known as Nanyehi is only recorded as marrying 2xs. 

1st to Kingfisher (had 2 children)

and 2nd to English Trader Bryant Ward (had 1 child)

She definitely did not marry a Moytoy.

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Hi Don, I believe we may share the same Odum/Odom paternal line.  Mine currently extends from a Richard Odum/Odium who died in 1727 in Chowan, NC.  My specific line comes from his son Abraham Odum.  Ultimately, my line of Odoms moved from Chowan, NC to Marlboro, SC, and then to Muscogee County, GA and Russell, AL.  By chance, have you taken a YDNA test?  If so, I would love to compare our haplogroup results.  My terminal SNP is I1-FGC3458.  

Warm regards,

Dave Odom, California, MD

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Hi Dave

Don't know how I missed your message, but I believe you are correct. I have taken the ancestry DNA and will see if I can send it to you.