What do we know about the origins of Prudence, mother of Prudence Choate Dykes?

Question

Original version of this question was titled “How can Prudence Standing Turkey be 100% Cherokee, when G Grandfather born England?”

Question changed to better attract discussion on origins of attached profile.

Thanks.

Comments

Deb, I look forward to seeing the evidence you have that supports Prudence, the older, being daughter of a Native American couple. Thanks.

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We know that Prudence Choate who married Isham Dykes was born in 1782. Therefore her parents likely married about or at least closer to 1780. That would then suggest her parents were born 1750-1760.  That associates best with Christopher Choate IV not VII and not III.

That said, the entire line of Christopher Choates needs better sourcing.

Right now I’ve only attached Prudence (now Unknown not Staley) as mother of Prudence Choate Dykes, not of any other children until we get this worked out.

Do we have anything about the siblings of Prudence Choate Dykes?

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Exactly. My family history has always shown Thomas Pasmere Carpenter born in England, so no one ever claimed the first Prudence was 100% Cherokee. The first Prudence has always been of mixed race.

I'm not sure where this "Shawnee fraud" garbage originated. In my Family tree, I see no Shawnee claim. I only see Cherokee and some Choktaw. 

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Exactly.

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Deb, I'm trying to get clarification on the Shawnee Heritage matter, as well. There was reference on one of the profiles or g2g threads, that the claims to Prudence's Native American heritage came from that work; I'm trying to track that down.

As for Thomas Pasmere Carpenter, that has been disputed elsewhere. 

See this g2g thread and especially this blog.

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I take that back. There were THREE. Prudence Choate Dykes and her husband Isham named their daughter Prudence, so there were three Prudences during that timeframe. Of course, that one was Prudence Dykes by birth--not marriage.  https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-64982581/jackson#!profile-1500188-info

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Delete this comment, plese.

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This is a portrait of Chief Tecumsah. It is not the mythical Thomas Pasmere Carpenter.

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Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh

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Cool..

Answer 1

The Cherokee are matrilineal so the direct maternal ancestors determine membership in a clan or Nation - regardless of the father's ancestry.   Percentages come from a blood quantum system developed by the US government.  This was not how tribes organized themselves.  So a Native American woman could marry someone who was not Cherokee and her children would still be regarded as Cherokee.

Comments

Only true with the old eastern cherokee..they changed cherokee law after the removal act of 1830.. it became much more strict especially with citizenship

Answer 2

A better question might  be how did this woman, supposed daughter of a Cherokee couple who lived in Tennessee, come to be born in Baltimore, Maryland. Not making much sense.

Answer 3

This is another instance of a fictional person added as daughter of a (real?) Native American and then attached as spouse to a man of European origins in order to perpetuate an undocumented myth of Indian (princess) heritage. 

Looks like she should be merged away into https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Staley-1001

AND the Staley / Choate profiles are all in need of sources. 

Comments

The Choates are an early Maryland family.  The men are well documented, the women not so much. The only record for a Prudence Choate that I have found is from a DAR application for Revolutionary War soldier Christopher Choate, born Bedford County, VA 1750, lived in 96 District South Carolina for many years (and served from there), then moved to different locations in Tennessee, where he later died.  The application says:

"Prudence Choate Wife of Isham Dykes  born 1782 in Tenn,; died April 5, 1862 in Altamont, Tenn (Grundy Co.) and was buried at Philadelphia, Tenn. (Warrenn County).  Her father was Christopher Choate and her mother was Prudence(?). "

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Thanks, Kathie. I hope you’ll add thee and other sources to the relevant Choate profiles. Christopher and his wife are currently unsourced. (And also in need of some profile cleanup.)

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I’ve been trying to clean up these profiles.  The generations of multuple Christopher Choates seem very messed up.

Prudence mother of Prudence Choate Dyke was attached to the wrong generation. I *think* I’ve got both Prudences attached to the right generation now but this whole line of Christopher Choates needs close attention and better sources than online trees, Edmund West and the dreaded Millennium File.

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Kathie, 

Is the Standing Turkey, daughter of Moytoy etc, story from Don Greene’s Shawnee Heritage series?  

(https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Shawnee_Heritage_Fraud)

If so, we should add the appropriate category to Prudence Sr’s profile, yes?

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https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-64982581/jackson#!profile-1506665-info

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Deb,

That link goes to an unsourced online tree.

Wikitree seeks to support claims made on its profiles with stronger evidence than unsourced online trees and web sites.

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There were multiple Christopher Choates (generational) born in different centuries, fathering different children, etc., and they—and their spouses—are in my family tree.

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I don't know the source of the story, or how the woman listed in many trees as 'Prudence Staley' born Baltimore, MD 1720, who was supposedly married 1745 in Baltimore, MD to Christopher Choate, (also b. Baltimore, MD 1720, son of Christopher Choate and Flora Hawkins),  became the daughter of a Cherokee Chief named 'Standing Turkey.'  I have not located a marriage record for the Christopher Choate born in 1720.  As noted elsewhere, the first record I find for a Christopher Choate with a wife named Prudence is in a DAR record for the Christopher born abt. 1750 in Virginia, a Revolutionary War soldier who ended up in Tennessee with a daughter also named Prudence.  The 'Shawnee Heritage' books provide Native American spouses for several members of the Choate family.

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Deb,

I'm aware of the multiple generations of Christopher Choates. What's challenging is finding sources for each of their sets of vitals and spouses and children. That's what we're seeking here. Thanks.

Kathie,

Curious about your thoughts on the fact that we know that Prudence Choate who married Isham Dykes was born in 1782; wouldn't that put her parents -- Christopher Choate and Prudence _____-- marrying about 1780, and therefore born more likely 1750s?-- i.e., the generation following the Christopher Choate born in the 1720s?

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Christopher Choate, father of Prudence Choate Dykes, stated in his Revolutionary War pension application that he was born Jan 1, 1750 in Bedford County, Virginia.  He first enlisted in 1780, while living in South Carolina, and served twice, apparently for a total of nine or ten months.  He does not mention a wife or children in his pension application.  Per the DAR applications, he had at least one other child, a daughter named Elizabeth, born in 1807.  That would suggest that either his wife Prudence was much younger than he was, or that he had two wives (all the applications list Prudence as mother of Prudence and Elizabeth).

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Kathie, Good to know (about Christopher's pension application).  So whoever Prudence Choate Dykes' mother was, she was likely born between 1750 and 1760.

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Another question about these Shawnee Heritage books— they include information about tribes other than Shawnee? The have Cherokee in there as well? (True or otherwise ?)

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They are a mish-mash.  A typical entry looks like this for one person, e,g, "Little Owl  (son of Dragging Canoe) - 7/8 Chalakatha, Thawikila, Chickamauga, Shawano, Chalaka, Powhatan, Creek, Cherokee, Metis,"  There is no evidence to suggest that 'Little Owl' was anything but a full-blood Cherokee.  Chalakatha, Thawikila, Chickamauga, and Chalaka above are clans or factions within the Shawnee (Shawano) or Cherokee; an individual can only belong to one clan and one tribe.

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Here is Greene's listing for my 100% white 2nd ggrandfather, Samuel Parks, son of John and Ruth Parks, born 1789 in what is now Bradley County, TN, The Parks family moved from Maryland, to Virginia, to Tennessee.  Samuel's wife Susannah was Cherokee, and Samuel took a reservation of land on her behalf under the Treaty of 1819.

"1180.  Parks, Samuel, 1/4th Thawikila-Metis born 1796 (TN?)-died 1841 TN - son of Maria Metis & John Parks-SCO a Thawikila warrior.  Treaty 1819, lived with Cherokee and Wyandot, husband 1814 Bradley Co. TN of Susannah Fox-Taylor."..

Answer 4

I saw 'Standing Turkey' and remembered this FindAGrave memorial:

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=GRAH&GSpartial=1&GSbyrel=all&GSst=38&GScntry=4&GSsr=41&GRid=32039434

Comments

Did you notice, Jo Gill, that the name of the person who added the picture of the tombstone was "Abby Normal?"  The same name was used in Mel Brooks' movie "Young Frankenstein" as the brain borrowed by "I-Gore" from the brain bank for installation into the body of the creature of Dr.Frankenstein.  A B Normal.

Respectfully, although with a chuckle,

Sharon Richardson

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Just an FYI that as with many FAG memorials, there are quite a few errors in Alice's. Her Dawes application is quite detailed since her parentage was uncertain.  It states that she was born in Indian Territory about 1878,  and that she married Nelson Henson in 1896 and was still married to him in 1907.  She was living in Muskogee, OK, in both 1900 and in 1907 when she filed her Eastern Cherokee application. There is no evidence that she ever attended the Female Seminary, in fact she attended a school for white children.

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and the great line from that movie ... 'ixnay on the ottenray'.  Pig Latin lives!

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When you look up 'conflation' in Webster's, I thank that's her picture.

I can't imagine where all that detail came from.  I'm working on Choctow McClure line and rarely find anything before the Dawes number.

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Yes!  Pig Latin alive?!

Answer 5

This profile has been merged away, and research notes added. If you have more details that should be added to those research notes, please add them. We're also seeking a more specific citation for the DAR application referenced in the profile. Thanks.