Need help with the proper construction of an "ap" name ...

+11 votes

Just did a merge with a profile that has an "ap" name, and I could use some help with how to properly enter the name.

From what I've read, it seems like "ap Sion" would go in the LNAB as well as the Current Last Name field.

Where would "Graff" go? Is that a middle name? Did they use middle names in the 1500s in Wales??

note - edited to add Cymru tag, Liz

WikiTree profile: Gruffydd Graff ap Sion
in Policy and Style by Julie Ricketts G2G6 Pilot (430k points)
edited by Liz Shifflett
I got the LNAB part ... don't know what to do w/ the "middle" name. :-/

I'd not ever heard "Graff" - Google translate say "Graff" in Welsh means "graph". Any sources for this family? I couldn't find them in Bartrum or on the web. And his son is shown as "Gruffydd ap Cardigan" - while he may have been _of_ Cardigan, he's attached as son to the profile for Gruffydd, so he would be _ap_ (son of) Gruffydd. 

Also, "ap" should be in the LNAB when appropriate (see this section of the Cymru project page).

Cheers, Liz


3 Answers

+6 votes
In other Welsh names I've seen, where there are two names before the "ap", the first one would appear to be the given name and the second one a nickname, like "George the Bald"  "Gruffudd the Somber".  I'm pretty sure the second name thus was achieved later in life and was not part of the birth name.  So whatever you see, I would put it as a nickname rather than as a middle name.  (Then if you discover it's wrong, it's easy to change.)
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (389k points)
+3 votes
ap is the Welsh version of "son of"  It's a patronym which is used as the LNAB.  "ap" is not a middle name.
by David Hughey G2G Astronaut (1.6m points)
+1 vote
Sadly, this was first posted two and a half years ago and there's been no further work on sourcing these individuals.  As David Hughey says, "ap" means "son of".  So this Gruffudd has a son who is "ap Cardigan".  If Cardigan is his father, then Gruffudd is not his father.  But how can you tell when the only sourcing you have is a gedcom from  

One issue is that many records were written by the English who spelled things the way they heard them, not the Welsh way.  So was there a "cardigan"?  Or was it "cadwgon?  

It becomes a fairly futile effort to try to figure out proper LNABs when you don't know who the people really were or even if they really existed!
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (389k points)

They're all from Geni.

They're supposed to be the ancestors of Abel and Enoch Morgan, Welsh Baptist preachers of Delaware.  Smell the fire and brimstone.

This page

says Abel's uncle was John Roderick.  And this page

says John Roderick's ancestry has been revised.

Which might mean the whole line is irrelevant, or it might mean that Abel's father wasn't really John's brother.  DWB isn't necessarily consistent across articles.

The traditional line is given here

but I wish I hadn't read it and I'm going to have to go and lie down now.

Expanded version

Sources not noted.

Dunno if Dafydd ap Gruffyth is the same as this one

Beyond him I think it's just the internet trying to make stuff up.


Related questions

+9 votes
1 answer
+4 votes
1 answer
+5 votes
1 answer
209 views asked Jun 25, 2018 in Policy and Style by Debi Hoag G2G6 Pilot (347k points)
+4 votes
2 answers
136 views asked May 29, 2021 in The Tree House by Mary Gi G2G6 Mach 4 (42.5k points)
+3 votes
2 answers
237 views asked May 9, 2017 in Genealogy Help by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (539k points)

WikiTree  ~  About  ~  Help Help  ~  Search Person Search  ~  Surname:

disclaimer - terms - copyright