Can You Help Henry VII? Cymru Welsh Royals and Aristocrats Project and the Collaborative Profile of the Week.

+12 votes
595 views

The Cymru Welsh Royals and Aristocrats 742-1535
and the Collaborative Profile of the Week Present

Henry VII, King of England.

Here at WikiTree Henry VII, King of Engand (c1457-1509) was born, married, and made elaborate plans for his tomb.

  1. What else did he do?
  2. Did his reign have any lasting effects?
  3. His profile should have a sourced list of children. Would someone add one?
  4. Most of the profiles for his children have material and sources, but a few could use a little help: Son Edmund Tudor needs a source; son Roland needs a gedcom cleanup and a source, and daughter Katherine needs a source.
  5. There are several images at Wikimedia Commons that can be added and perhaps worked into the biography. Make sure to give them proper provenance.

Not pre-1500 certified? Want to show us what you can do? Write a paragraph or more about Henry, with inline citations. Put it here in an answer. I’ll add it to the biography. (putting your name in the “Explain your changes”)

What would you like to contribute to this week's profile? Please post an answer here first. This prevents duplication of effort and it keeps the question on the front page of G2G.

The Cymru Welsh Royals and Aristocrats 742-1535 Project

The Cymru Welsh Royals and Aristocrats 742-1535 Project is a sub-project of the United Kingdom Project. It includes royals, aristocrats and nobles in Wales from the birth of Charlemagne in 742 until the end of the 1535. What happened in 1535 that made it a significant date.  In that year that the first Laws in Wales Act was passed. The legal system of England was extended to Wales, and the norms of English administration were introduced, including the imposition of English as the language of governance. You can read about these Acts on Wikipedia.

Diolch (Thank you)
WikiTree profile: Henry VII of England
in Requests for Project Volunteers by Anne B G2G Astronaut (1.1m points)
edited by Anne B
Thanks, Anne! This will be featured on the main home page momentarily.

3 Answers

+4 votes
 
Best answer
"Son Roland" needs more than a Gedcom cleanup -- he needs to be delinked.  The narrative on Roland's profile suggests that he might be an illegitimate son of Henry -- or he might be the son of someone else.  Thus, while sonship to Henry is not impossible, the likelihood seems way below 50%.  Such a tenuous relationship seems to me to fall below even the threshhold for "uncertain".  The possible relationship can certainly be mentioned in the narrative on both profiles and crosslinks between the two profiles included.

To include such a tenuous relationship in the datafield creates the possibility that descendants of Roland may be led to believe that they are actually descendants of Henry VII, which is not something that any honest person could offer as more than just a remote and unprovable possibility.  Keeping the link seems to me then to be both dishonest and unfair to others who depend on WikiTree.

LATER NOTE:  I initially suggested that Roland be delinked based on the sketchy information available on the profile.  Once the profile was properly sourced with data from the authoritative Medieval Lands Databse, which acknowledges the possibility of descent, I am comfortable with including the link but marked uncertain.  This is another plug for doing good research on these profiles!

MUCH LATER NOTE:  Based on research by Richardson, the relationship was disconnected.  Further commentary below.
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (336k points)
edited by Jack Day
Thanks Jack, I was going to suggest you communicate with Roland's managers, which I see you have done. Can you put a note on Henry's profile also, and then follow up with the disconnect, after giving the managers a chance to respond.
That's kind of the purpose of the 'uncertain' flag, and scholars think there were good reasons he wasn't better acknowledged as a natural son unlike other illegitimate children of English monarchs. I'll add a blurb with couple of sources- I would suggest a separate G2G about this issue & I don't think the managers are active Wikitree users. Thanks!
Yes a separate question might help.
Hi, Anne -- I had not planned to get involved in this one but "in for a penny, in for a pound" so .... I found Henry VII entry in Cawley's Medieval Lands, the Euroaristo go-to source, and will add material from that to Henry VII's profile.  Cawley mentions Roland as a possibility, so that is as persuasive as anything, and I'm fine with leaving the link, since that will now be documented in the profile.
Thank you Jack. I'm amazed at the interesting conversations going on here over Henry.
OK, Henry VII now benefits from Cawley's work and has a profile that includes birth, marriage, death and issue.  Roland is included as per Cawley.  Cawley's material on the children is pretty much included in the list of children, but I'll leave it to someone else to now add that material to each particular child, whose resumes need updating.  Roland's LNAB needs correcting by a leader to Velville, as Kirk said.
I am the 14th great grandson of Sir Roland Tudor de Velville. In fact I am the current title holder of Lord de Velville. Although it has been suggested that Roland was not Henry VII's son, he in fact was. I have a lot of coincidental and implied evidence but the smoking gun is out. Is there anyone whom has anything solid? I am not sure if a DNA test between Henry and Roland will be forthcoming. I would love some help as I am battling with the college of arms
Jack, where can I find this information? My gedcom files has a lot about Roland de Velville. I am trying to find definitive proof of a link between Henry VII and Roland. Can you help?

 

Thanks
James, your question is why we try to have (1) inline sources linked to each fact or statement and (2) links to an internet source whenever possible.  (Of course not every good source is on the internet.  Some of us gluttons for genealogical punishment have slowly developed significant paper libraries over time).

So, to answer your question, (1) click on the link to Henry VII.  (2) on his page go down to "Issue", where his children are listed.  The ninth is Roland.  (3)  Click on the citation number at Roland's material which will take you to the citation below, namely Cawley's Medieval Lands Database.  (4)  Click on the internet link at the citation and it will take you right there.  Voila -- there is the answer to your question.

Now, ponder the material, and if you use it in the biography of Roland or any other profile, use a linked citation like item 4 above.  If creating the citation is a challenge, go back to the citation on henry VII's page and copy it to where you want it, making whatever changes in it that you need to.
Jack,

Thank you so much. I have too many papers to even think about attempting to go through them. I just joined here but I have been an avid genealogist for years. Consider checking out my gedcom file - it is epic.

 

I appreciate your answer!
A discussion took place on  Soc Med genealogy  in August 2016, a couple of months after this thread. Douglas Richardson gives his opinion on Roland's parentage. https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/-_ArDuPt84U I hope that is the full link, am using  a phone and don't find it easy)
Helen - Thank you! I have quite a bit of proof myself. I take pride in being Sir Roland's 15th great grandson. I am in a tit for tat with the college of arms as we speak. Sir Roland's French Title rests with me as I am the designee. I can report that "the unknown Breton woman" whom is Roland's mother is a member of the le Coquer family - a very noted noble family of the Duchy of Brittany. Our Chauteau (Chateau de Rosanbo) is still owned by my French Cousins. Rosanbo is where Henry VII stayed for the duration of exile and is where Roland was conceived and born. I hope to have new proof this summer when I travel over to Rosanbo
The beauty of WikiTree is that changes can be made relatively easily and if a change is in error, it can be restored relatively easily.  Based on this discussion I took the liberty of delinking Roland from Henry VII as his father.  When evidence of his parentage emereges, appropriate links can easily be made.
Based on Douglas Richardson's reasoning, the relationship between Henry VII and Roland was disconnected.  It does appear there may be a possibility of a relationship, but the place to discuss unproven possibilities is the biography text, particularly under a section on ==Research Notes==.

Once there is a controversy, the bar regarding standards of proof is elevated.  Cawley mentions the relationship as a possibility and Richardson asserts the relationship is doubtful.  Both state why in terms of original sources they have or have not found.  This does not mean that they are the final word.  It does mean, however, that to change a perspective based on their research, even better documentation must be found than they have.  

WikiTree is a dynamic, wiki type site which is constantly changing as new and improved information becomes available.  Finding the persuasive evidence to overturn Cawley's and Richardson's analyses and document a relationship between Roland as son and Henry VII as father would be a significant coup which would give WikiTree admiration and esteem.  The challenge is on, and the one who succeeds receives and deserves a laurel.
+2 votes

Claim to the Throne

Henry Tudor's claim to the English throne was tenuous at best. Through his mother, Margaret Beaufort, he was descended from John of Gaunt's illicit affair with Catherine Swynford.<ref name="Britannia">http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/mon40.html</ref> Though the issue born before their marriage had been legitimated by parliament, all claims of this line were never valid until the direct male line of John of Gaunt had become extinct.<ref name="Luminarium">http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/henry7.htm</ref> Henry's paternal grandfather, Owen Tudor, had married Catherine of Valois, the widow of Henry V and daughter to Charles VI of France. Their son Edmund, being the half brother of Henry VI, was created Earl of Richmond. He married Margaret Beaufort, only daughter of John, Duke of Somerset, and died more than two months before their son, Henry Tudor, was born in 1457.<ref name="Luminarium" />

Despite his Lancastrian connections, Henry ultimately ganied the throne through personal battle.<ref name="Britannia" /> At the Battle of Bosworth Field on August 22, 1485, Henry, Earl of Richmond, defeated King Richard III of England and became King Henry VII of England.<ref>http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/bosworth.htm</ref> He was crowned at Westminster on October 30, 1485. 

Then, on January 18, 1486 at Westminster, in fulfilment of pledges by which he had gained the loyalty of many Yorkist supporters, he was married to Elizabeth of York, eldest daughter and heiress of Edward IV. Thus the Red Rose of Lancaster and the White Rose of York were united and the pretexts for civil war were done away with-- the Cousins' War had ended.<ref name="Luminarium" />
 

*Helpful family tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VII_of_England#Ancestry

 

(note: more information about other parts of his bio and reign at Luminarium and Britannia)

by Samantha Rogers G2G2 (2.7k points)

Henry's claim to the throne was weak and possibly illegal <ref> The Beaufort Legitimation http://www.r3.org/on-line-library-text-essays/back-to-basics-for-newcomers/the-beaufort-legitimation/</ref>. Nevertheless,  although he  had won the throne by right of conquest,  Henry  dated his reign from the day before Bosworth..<ref> http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/123%20201%20henry%20vii.htm</ref> In an act of attainder,  Parliament, declared that Richard of Gloucester had been a  traitor who had usurped the throne  and 'by great and continued deliberation, traitorously levied war against our said sovereign lord and his true subjects'  . <ref> Parliamentary Record  DATE: November, 1485. AUTHOR: King and council. TEXT: “Rotuli Parliamentarium,” ed. J. Strachey, 6 vols.(London, 1767-83), VI, p. 176. (English; spelling modernized.) reproduced at http://www.r3.org/richard-iii/the-battle-of-bosworth/bosworth-contemporary-tudor-accounts/ </ref> 

Thank you both, Excellent information.
Parliaments would say what they were told to say.  They said Edward's marriage was void, to suit Richard, then they said it wasn't, to suit Henry.  They said Richard was king, then he was a traitor.  What did that make them?

But the whole War of the Roses thing was an invention of Tudor propaganda.  Nobody had seen it that way at the time.  Nobody had ever talked of a House of Lancaster or worn a red rose.

But Henry had to strengthen his position, so he came up with this notion that he had unified two rival dynasties and put an end to decades of feuding.

It was always clear that the descendants of Clarence were the rightful heirs.  It wasn't John of Gaunt who usurped, it was Bolingbroke.  The usurpation was over when Bolingbroke ran out of legitimate descendants - it could never give any claim to his half-siblings.  Tudor floated to the top as Henry VI's half-nephew; nobody reckoned his Beaufort descent.

What happened in the 1480s was a whole new war manufactured out of nothing when Richard wasn't content with Regency.  What it proved was the ability of "over-mighty subjects" to choose whatever king they wanted.
+2 votes

Son Edmund Tudor has a source (wikipedia)

With Roland, could a leader change his LNAB to Velville? I'm also working on connecting his descendants.

by Kirk Hess G2G6 Mach 6 (62.6k points)
Also, this brings up a question I have - he has no descendants currently, but he has a DNA connection to Milton Davis.Is that a mistake?

I edited Henry VII's youngest da. Katherine as well

Roland's da. Jane (Velville) Tudor needs a look - her LNAB needs to be fixed, her husband was Tudor ap Robert Vychan which currently is Robert Tudor so any Welsh name experts may want to weigh in. Their da. Katherine/Catherine Tudor married 4 times, also might need a LNAB check. Thanks!

Hi Kirk thanks for helping, I've called on someone more knowledgeable about medieval LNAB's, to change the LNAB

Found a duplicate Katherine Tudor as Berain-1, and her 3rd husband Maurice Wynn is also duplicated as Wynne-214 and Wynne-338 both of whom are PPP'd and all his children are PPP'd so I can't fix any of the links, needs another leader. I added the EuroAristo template to all his children.

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