What proof is there that Richard Barnes was the father of the children shown on his profile?

+5 votes
I am wondering what source(s) people have to connect Richard "Shawnee" Barnes to the daughters shown.  I've never located any sources myself, and unless someone has strong sources I propose he be detached.

My interest in the profile is that my 5th great-grandmother, Alcey (surname unknown but some think it was Odom) (Odom-337) who married Benjamin Kirkland is given a name on Wikitree of "Chotawolina" and shown as the daughter of Abraham Odom and Sibyl Barnes, with Sibly shown as the daughter of the above mentioned Richard Barnes.

Please provide evidence of these family connections...
WikiTree profile: Richard Barnes
asked in Genealogy Help by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (268k points)
retagged by Darlene Athey-Hill

This link was just provided on my post with regard to Sybil Barnes Odom, shedding a non too positive light on the sole source of the claim with regard to Mary being his daughter (and still no sources for the other daughters):  http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.ethnic.natam.nations.shawnee.shawneenat/169/mb.ashx

2 Answers

+1 vote
Perhaps reviewing the sources and links and editing the profile makes more sense?   If those links saying Richard Barnes is the father are unsourced it should be noted.  Do the other profile managers want to detach it?
answered by Marc Snelling G2G6 (7k points)
More sense than what?  

There is nothing on the profile or 'sources' showing him as the father.  Thus my G2G post. We have many inactive PMs on Wikitree.  So we post on G2G in case anyone has information about the family referenced.  I've done a lot of research on the Kirkland line, as have other diligent researchers, and I am unaware of any data proving or even implying the connections shown.  If someone has uncovered evidence, that will make me a very happy camper...
More sense to mark it 'unsourced' than to remove it outright.
+1 vote

Hey Darlene,

The oral traditions of Native Peoples, First Peoples, etc. sometimes, or most of the time make sources hard to come by if at all. So providing "evidence" could be problematic. In this case detaching them seems to me not a good move, unless there is some sourcing to prove they are not the daughters.

My two and a half cents added to Seneca's (Marc) two and a half cents.


answered by Mags Gaulden G2G6 Pilot (460k points)

Hey Mags, I fully understand and appreciate that.  The website referenced makes mention of daughter Mary, but no reference for how they determined or surmised that Mary was his daughter.  But there is no mention anywhere about Sibyl and Charity.  I hope someone will reply that will give us a source (be it a website or book) that mentions these other two purported daughters.  Without any source or reference, it's just someone choosing to connect them.  I think that something is needed to connect parents (and mark them uncertain.  The dates for Richard having a daughter Sibyl at age 13 and Sibyl being married at age 9 are far-fetched.  I'll start a separate post with regard to Sibyl.  Daughter Charity is completely unsourced...

I hope someone does some research - I cleaned-up and condensed what was already on his profile this morning...

I did see the information on Mary as a daughter from a real source. You are right that the rest just looks like connections for connections sake. Add a Disputed Daughters section to the research section for his profile so IF anyone comes up with something we can get a discussion going? We should probably add a disputed parentage section to the daughters profiles as well. Leaving a note for Sheila.

I saw your work, Mags.  Thanks; you're the best!  I already had a note on Sibyl's profile re: disputed parentage.  I've posted on G2G asking others to provide sources.  I'm doing some research today to see what I can locate.  There's a 1759 probate record for a Richard Barnes and Mary Barnes.  I'm wondering which Richard and Mary this is.  For a long time, many people have thought Richard Barnes was married to Mary Odom (various spellings of her surname).  I'm going to see if I can make any sense out of what I locate!
According to Shawnee Heritage by Don Green and Noel Schutz:

"Vann Edward 1/2 Cherokee mitis born about 1720 died 1773 son of John Trader Vann 1690 white and Cherokee woman 1696 brother of John husband 1st about 1737 of mary barnes 20 1/2 chalakatha metis and 2nd about 1744 to Mary's sister charity barnes 26 1/2 chalakatha metis, father with Mary of joseph vann 38, jennie vann 40 james vann 42 and Edward ned vann 44, with charity of cleiment vann 44, Thomas vann 46, avery vann 48, edith vann 50 and susanna vann 52 1/4 chalakatha Cherokee metis

According to quite a few people, the book "Shawnee Heritage" is mostly fiction -- very few facts.  See this thread:  http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.ethnic.natam.nations.shawnee.shawneenat/169/mb.ashx

I've been contacted privately by a couple people that are pretty upset with the 'made up' genealogies in that book.  One person told me she's given up on Wikitree (she's a Native American) due to the preponderence of false claims about Native American heritage on here.  And even Shawnee Heritage doesn't name the other two daughters!

Thanks for this info.  I'm not sure where this leaves us.
It leaves us with parents with no adequate sources...  We'll see if anyone comes up with anything.  As I've mentioned on another post, there have been a lot of Kirkland researchers (popular family...) over the past four decades (before I started doing genealogy) doing a massive amount of research, pouring through tons of deeds, records, etc., and no one has yet to come up with any proof of Native American ancestry.  DNA is where we will get our answer...
My son does have NA DNA but Edith Vann married into the Coody family where the NA ancestry is well known.
For descendants of Sybil who married Abraham Odom, we need to see if anyone shares DNA and form a triangulated group with any descendants of Richard Barnes' siblings or cousins to see if she is in fact a Barnes.

For descendants of Sibyl who married Richard Snowden Kirkland, we need to do the same (to see if she is in fact a daughter of Abraham Odom who married Sibyl 'Barnes'.

My dad is a descendant of Sibyl who married Richard Snowden Kirkland; his DNA admixture shows no Native American heritage.
Has anyone done any more research on these connections? I am a descendant of Caleb Kirkland Sr. and the line on down Ancestry.com connects this person to Richard "Shawnee" Barnes Jr.
Jonathan, my comments are still applicable. We need DNA to confirm/disprove ancestry.
My husband is a descendant of Charity Barnes and Edward Vann. His DNA shows absolutely no Indian heritage, not even a fraction of a percent.

So this isn't proof, but it is more information to share. My Mom is a descendant of Caleb Kirkland Sr. Ancestry.com shows a connection of this person to Richard "Shawnee" Barnes Jr. I ran my moms DNA info through GEDmatch Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Admixture Proportions and it showed 4 percent American Indian on my moms Chromosome 1. If this is accurate data, the DNA could have come from Richard Barnes as that is the most likely source in my particular family line... Could be data "noise", or could be from someone else in the family? Are there other Caleb Kirkland Sr. descendants with more then 2 percent admixture NA DNA?

My dad, using the Gedmatch Eurogenes test you used, has a small amount of Amerindian reported on several chromosomes (none on chr. 1).  The largest is 7.2% on chr. 18.  It will require a triangulated group to try and prove a connection to Richard Barnes and/or his wife...

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