What proof is there that Richard Barnes was the father of the children shown on his profile? [closed]

Question

I am wondering what source(s) people have to connect Richard "Shawnee" Barnes to the daughters shown.  I've never located any sources myself, and unless someone has strong sources I propose he be detached.

My interest in the profile is that my 5th great-grandmother, Alcey (surname unknown but some think it was Odom) (Odom-337) who married Benjamin Kirkland is given a name on Wikitree of "Chotawolina" and shown as the daughter of Abraham Odom and Sibyl Barnes, with Sibly shown as the daughter of the above mentioned Richard Barnes.

Please provide evidence of these family connections...

Comments

This link was just provided on my post with regard to Sybil Barnes Odom, shedding a non too positive light on the sole source of the claim with regard to Mary being his daughter (and still no sources for the other daughters):  http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.ethnic.natam.nations.shawnee.shawneenat/169/mb.ashx

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I know I am very late to this comment, but I have recently started my family search.  On family search.org i found that i have a 5th GGFather William Knox Coleman married to Elizabeth/ Betsy Vann.  Her father leads to William Vann and his father Edward Ned Vann Sr. married to Charity Shawnee Barnes Vann whose father was Richard Shawnee Barnes II married to her mother Anna Hyde.  This is where it gets muddy.  If you are still looking into things maybe this can help us both if it spurs something you need to put the puzzle together.  If not maybe you can reassure me that it is a wall that i can not get over.  

Thanks, Randall

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There was no “Charity Shawnee Barnes Vann.”  Some people think Edward Vann https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vann-1190  (who was 100% white) had a wife named Charity.  She exists in no records.  Edward was not one of the Vanns who married into the Cherokee Nation. 

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That's what I am looking for as well.  I was hoping that someone may have seen or heard of the William Knox Coleman/Elizabeth Betsy Vann connection.  This is one of the only blocked lines I have in my tree.  Do you know if William Vann https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LVF4-4HZ, is in fact Elizabeth's father?

I understand the Charity Shawnee discrepancy and am trying to find the actual lineage 

Riley Grady Coleman 1824-1905 s/o William Knox Coleman and Elizabeth Betsey Vann and so on.  I was just hoping this might spur a connection with someone else, as my family didn't pass down information and i started from scratch.

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I think FamilySearch has William connected to the wrong Edward for starters.  I don't see any son William for the Edward who may have had a wife named Charity Barnes.  If William the supposed father of Elizabeth existed he may be the son of one of the Vanns who stayed in North Carolina. There are several William Vanns in various counties in North Carolina in this time period.    Several of the sources on the FamilySearch profile are from England including the marriage to Ann Coltman and a daughter Elizabeth who lived and died in England clearly not the wife of William Coleman of Tennessee and North Carolina.  

According to the census William Coleman's wife Elizabeth (Vann) was born in Tennessee when the Vanns that people are connecting her to were living in North and South Carolina.  William's War of 1812 pension application https://www.fold3.com/image/304827005  has a lot of information about him and a later letter which names his parents but not his wife's.

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I agree.  I did find a story about him through another person.

affidavit stating, he was actually "a rebel at heart" but that's as far as I am getting right now.  Some of my family remember Elizabeth possibly being nicknamed Zilla and I have seen that on a few census reports but nothing documenting her and her parents.

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William lost his War of 1812 pension because of his rebel sympathies.

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He did but it was reinstated in 1878 because Allen supposedly admitted to making up the story because he was mad at Coleman for not loaning him some bacon. It sounds funny but true in the affidavit

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Hi Randall, please start a new G2G post with your Coleman/Vann questions.  This post is closed.

Answer 1

Perhaps reviewing the sources and links and editing the profile makes more sense?   If those links saying Richard Barnes is the father are unsourced it should be noted.  Do the other profile managers want to detach it?

Comments

More sense than what?  

There is nothing on the profile or 'sources' showing him as the father.  Thus my G2G post. We have many inactive PMs on Wikitree.  So we post on G2G in case anyone has information about the family referenced.  I've done a lot of research on the Kirkland line, as have other diligent researchers, and I am unaware of any data proving or even implying the connections shown.  If someone has uncovered evidence, that will make me a very happy camper...

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More sense to mark it 'unsourced' than to remove it outright.

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Hello everyone, 

I just came across this discussion as I too was doing research on April Tikami. I found a lady named Tammy Nauquit who seems to have quite a bit of information. I will try and get a hold of her tomorrow. 

Has anyone found new info? 

Thanks, 

Kristin Kirkland-Stephens

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Sorry, but “April Tikami Hop” is a completely mythical person. Richard Barnes was a white man who died in Chowan County, NC in 1758.  The distribution of the estates of Richard and his wife Mary suggest that daughter Mary Vann was the daughter of Mary Barnes and an unknown husband. I don’t think there is documentation which proves that Edward Vann’s second wife Charity was a Barnes, and/or who her parents were.  Mary and Charity were white women married to a white man.

Answer 2

Hey Darlene,

The oral traditions of Native Peoples, First Peoples, etc. sometimes, or most of the time make sources hard to come by if at all. So providing "evidence" could be problematic. In this case detaching them seems to me not a good move, unless there is some sourcing to prove they are not the daughters.

My two and a half cents added to Seneca's (Marc) two and a half cents.

Mags
 

Comments

Hey Mags, I fully understand and appreciate that.  The website referenced makes mention of daughter Mary, but no reference for how they determined or surmised that Mary was his daughter.  But there is no mention anywhere about Sibyl and Charity.  I hope someone will reply that will give us a source (be it a website or book) that mentions these other two purported daughters.  Without any source or reference, it's just someone choosing to connect them.  I think that something is needed to connect parents (and mark them uncertain.  The dates for Richard having a daughter Sibyl at age 13 and Sibyl being married at age 9 are far-fetched.  I'll start a separate post with regard to Sibyl.  Daughter Charity is completely unsourced...

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I hope someone does some research - I cleaned-up and condensed what was already on his profile this morning...

I did see the information on Mary as a daughter from a real source. You are right that the rest just looks like connections for connections sake. Add a Disputed Daughters section to the research section for his profile so IF anyone comes up with something we can get a discussion going? We should probably add a disputed parentage section to the daughters profiles as well. Leaving a note for Sheila.

Mags

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I saw your work, Mags.  Thanks; you're the best!  I already had a note on Sibyl's profile re: disputed parentage.  I've posted on G2G asking others to provide sources.  I'm doing some research today to see what I can locate.  There's a 1759 probate record for a Richard Barnes and Mary Barnes.  I'm wondering which Richard and Mary this is.  For a long time, many people have thought Richard Barnes was married to Mary Odom (various spellings of her surname).  I'm going to see if I can make any sense out of what I locate!

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According to Shawnee Heritage by Don Green and Noel Schutz:

"Vann Edward 1/2 Cherokee mitis born about 1720 died 1773 son of John Trader Vann 1690 white and Cherokee woman 1696 brother of John husband 1st about 1737 of mary barnes 20 1/2 chalakatha metis and 2nd about 1744 to Mary's sister charity barnes 26 1/2 chalakatha metis, father with Mary of joseph vann 38, jennie vann 40 james vann 42 and Edward ned vann 44, with charity of cleiment vann 44, Thomas vann 46, avery vann 48, edith vann 50 and susanna vann 52 1/4 chalakatha Cherokee metis

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According to quite a few people, the book "Shawnee Heritage" is mostly fiction -- very few facts.  See this thread:  http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.ethnic.natam.nations.shawnee.shawneenat/169/mb.ashx

I've been contacted privately by a couple people that are pretty upset with the 'made up' genealogies in that book.  One person told me she's given up on Wikitree (she's a Native American) due to the preponderence of false claims about Native American heritage on here.  And even Shawnee Heritage doesn't name the other two daughters!

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Thanks for this info.  I'm not sure where this leaves us.

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It leaves us with parents with no adequate sources...  We'll see if anyone comes up with anything.  As I've mentioned on another post, there have been a lot of Kirkland researchers (popular family...) over the past four decades (before I started doing genealogy) doing a massive amount of research, pouring through tons of deeds, records, etc., and no one has yet to come up with any proof of Native American ancestry.  DNA is where we will get our answer...

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My son does have NA DNA but Edith Vann married into the Coody family where the NA ancestry is well known.

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For descendants of Sybil who married Abraham Odom, we need to see if anyone shares DNA and form a triangulated group with any descendants of Richard Barnes' siblings or cousins to see if she is in fact a Barnes.

For descendants of Sibyl who married Richard Snowden Kirkland, we need to do the same (to see if she is in fact a daughter of Abraham Odom who married Sibyl 'Barnes'.

My dad is a descendant of Sibyl who married Richard Snowden Kirkland; his DNA admixture shows no Native American heritage.

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Has anyone done any more research on these connections? I am a descendant of Caleb Kirkland Sr. and the line on down Ancestry.com connects this person to Richard "Shawnee" Barnes Jr.

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Jonathan, my comments are still applicable. We need DNA to confirm/disprove ancestry.

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My husband is a descendant of Charity Barnes and Edward Vann. His DNA shows absolutely no Indian heritage, not even a fraction of a percent.

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So this isn't proof, but it is more information to share. My Mom is a descendant of Caleb Kirkland Sr. Ancestry.com shows a connection of this person to Richard "Shawnee" Barnes Jr. I ran my moms DNA info through GEDmatch Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Admixture Proportions and it showed 4 percent American Indian on my moms Chromosome 1. If this is accurate data, the DNA could have come from Richard Barnes as that is the most likely source in my particular family line... Could be data "noise", or could be from someone else in the family? Are there other Caleb Kirkland Sr. descendants with more then 2 percent admixture NA DNA?

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My dad, using the Gedmatch Eurogenes test you used, has a small amount of Amerindian reported on several chromosomes (none on chr. 1).  The largest is 7.2% on chr. 18.  It will require a triangulated group to try and prove a connection to Richard Barnes and/or his wife...

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May be a clue?

Moses Kirkland, the South Carolina backcountry loyalist who had been in exile since 1775, now reappeared on the scene. In the winter of 1778, Kirkland, now John Stuart's deputy to the Seminole-Creeks, was directed to escort some Creek headmen to St. Augustine for talks with Augustine Prevost on how the Indians might participate in combined operations against the rebels.

*John Stuart father of the Bushyhead Cherokee Clan.

Kirkland, Moses, Memorial For 300 Acres On Edistoe River, Summarizing A Chain Of Title To A Grant To William Moultrie Of Feb. 22, 1771. Date: 2/4/1772

People in this record:

Kirkland, Benjamin; Kirkland, Moses
Also: Duke, John; Moultrie, William; Singuefield, Aaron

Places in this record:

Edisto River; Rocky Branch

Year: 1790 State: South Carolina County: Orangeburgh Sheet No: 250
Reel no: M637-11 District: South
Enumerated by: Daniel Green
Transcribed by Cheryl Hill for USGenWeb,
http://www.usgwcensus.org/. Copyright: 2003

39 | George Sizemore | 2 2 | 5 | 0 | 0 | S256 | (*Creek Indian per family DNA NA Haplogroup direct male NA ancestor; married into my Green family; *my notes)
40 | Benjamin Kirkland | 3 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | K624 |
41 | William Green | 5 2 | 6 | 0 | 4 | G650 |
42 | John Randel | 2 4 | 6 | 0 | 2 | R534 |
43 | Edward, Sen'r. Van | 2 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | V500 |
44 | Edward, Jun'r. Van | 1 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | V500 |
45 | Martin Cloud | 1 1 | 1 | 0 | * | C430 | *Unreadable

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Hi Troy, this would be Moses Kirkland, my 1C8R!

This Kirkland line, which is one from which my paternal grandmother descends, has been researched for several decades by groups of researchers, and more recently (book published in 2002) by Dr. James Peacock.  No one ever located any information for a Native American marriage...

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Regarding dna, and your husband's lack of Native ethnicity.  One can expect 12% for a great grandparent, 6% for a 2nd great, 3%-0 for a 3rd great grandparent.  Adding to this, is a lack of pure Native dna available to testing sites. It's unlikely your husband would show Native ethnicity in this case and he could still have Native ancestors.

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This is an interesting thread. I am at least double related to the BARNES family, at least double related to the ODOM/OLDHAM/ODAM family and I've been tracking down my relationship to the SIZEMORES in KY/VA/NC. Like many I show no native DNA with either an ancestry.com or 23andme test, but there is a small signature found on gedmatch.com.  For what it's worth I am eligble for membership into the Southern Cherokee of KY as well as the Enchota Cherokee of AL, neither of which have federal recognition but do have native status in their respective states.

I too am attempting to sort this line out.

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Hi Jonathan, Showing no Native Ancestry is ok.  For a 3rd great grandparent who might be full blood, one would expect to show 0-3% ethnicity.  Considering the fact that so many Cherokee were not full blood in the 1700's - this would in fact be normal. I show dna matches to the Barnes, the Sizemores and the Odom's as well.  They match an unknown line for me.  If you would like to email me please do.  I've been mapping out dna matches.  Karen

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This question was closed long ago since there is no evidence of a NativeAmerican connection in these families

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Late response i know but does he have any relation to William Knox Coleman?