Constant Southworth gateway ancestor?

+10 votes
931 views

Related to my question a few months ago, Constant is connected to at least 12 surety barons but is tagged as a questionable gateway ancestor. I haven't been successful, like many other profiles, in disproving this link. 

I was hoping someone else could look at his ancestry and verify it was sourced well enough to proceed with adding the templates? Also I wondered if any new research or errata in Richardson's works has any reference to Constant, his mother or brother? 

Here's the pedigree in question:

Update:

Edward Southworth appears to be the problem because there's not enough evidence Edward of London is the same person as Edward of Leiden - see the note in Weis, p. 14, Line 9 #41. Apparently this is also covered in Mayflower Quarterly 88 (1992): 10-15, I'll see if I can track that down.

 

WikiTree profile: Constant Southworth
in Genealogy Help by Kirk Hess G2G6 Mach 7 (70.6k points)
retagged by Darlene Athey-Hill
Came back across my unanswered question - I haven't been able to track down MQ 88 (1992) - hoping someone could look at it for me? Thanks!
This underscores the need to quote the relevant portion of a source. Especially a source not easily accessible.
Kirk, I added the 'euroaristo' tag to the question so that more people will see it...
Thanks! Usually I can find about anything but not this particular issue.
https://www.geni.com/people/Edward-Southworth-of-Samlesbury-Leiden/6000000002248073930

 

 

My grandmother ancestor juliann carpenter was sister of alice carpenter who marriied southworth and bradley

2 Answers

+7 votes
 
Best answer
The latest research out of England by Sue Allan shows that Edward Southworth, father of Constance, was b. 12 Apr 1585 (bp) son of Richard and Immyn (Ashton) Southworth of Clarborough Nottinghamshire England. He died shortly before the 'Mayflower' sailed in 1620. No connection to Royalty or Surities.
by
selected by Cheryl Skordahl
Tom, thanks. Was this research published? If so, where?
Yes, Sue did publish it. It may be purchased from her web site: admin@mayflowermaid.com

Sue Allan has many articles and publications out and is a respected author and historian and has collaborated with author and historian Jeremy Bangs on several projects.

She is the historian and tour guide for Scrooby Manor, ancestral home of William Bradford.
I looked at the web site and couldn't immediately find the reference.

I see she's got a book about Susannah White, but didn't see anything about Southworth.

Could you draft a citation so we can more easily find the specifics? Many thanks.
It's important news, and nothing was said when the Jacksons were announced.

But then again, it's a bit negative, and you don't sell a book by telling people what disappointments they'll find in it.
RJ, what do you mean "nothing was said when the Jacksons were announced"?

That was a big deal and very exciting and we were able to cite a specific article.

That's what I'm seeking here.

The web URL you posted includes text about the relationships but I'm seeking an actual article or book title that writes about the evidence.

I meant nothing was said about Southworths at that time.

But Edward is mentioned here

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Cochoit_Working_3

Question is whether anything's been firmed up.

Please forgive me, I did not give you accurate enough info:  pilgrimfathersorigins.org is the web site

Okay, so we're getting closer to a citation:

Sue Allen, In Search of Separatist Edward Southworth of Leiden, [Publication Location]: Pilgrim Fathers UK Origins Association (2017?), page: "pertinent quote"

My research book"In Search of Edward Southworth of Leiden" is now available in print from www.domtom.co.uk who ships direct to the USA. Sue Allan

+3 votes

Kirk, 

I too have been working on attempting to answer a similar question and contacted a New England Historic Genealogical Society genealogist for assistance. To build upon what others have researched and posted:

Background: Earlier genealogical research was often accepted based on loose assumptions (See: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Cochoit_Working_3). Subsequently, Constant Southworth’s potential royal descent has not been definitively proven. I hope that by combining additional research, analysis, and Y-DNA results through projects like the Family Tree DNA Southworth Surname project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/southworth-southard/about/background) the ancestry of Constant Southworth will be resolved.

Additional Research and Analysis Since 1992: Under Gary Boyd Roberts, The Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants to the American Colonies, Quebec, or the United States (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 2018), 1:708-709, Mr. Roberts first acknowledges the uncertainty of Edward’s origins: “Edward Southworth, probably [emphasis added] the Leyden Pilgrim…” (p. 708). He then addresses Sue Allan’s “In Search of Separatist Edward Southworth of Leiden” 2017  online monograph https://shop.americanancestors.org/products/in-search-of-separatist-edward-southworth-of-leiden-his-genealogical-origins-uncovered?pass-through=true (2019 version) argument against Leyden as Edward’s correct origin as Edward’s father, Thomas Southworth of Samelsbury, Lancashire was a Protestant, while Thomas’s father, Sir John Southworth, and two of Thomas’ brothers were “sometime ardent Catholics variously imprisoned.” Alternatively, Ms. Allan presents a circumstantial argument that Edward Southworth of Leyden was born 12 April 1585 at Clarborough, Nottinghamshire, son of Richard Southworth of Clarborough and Immyn Aston; and this Richard was son of Richard Southworth of Clarborough and Welham and Emma Levesey of Keeton (in Nottinghamshire).

Resolution Strategy: Identify descendants of Sir John Southworth and Mary Ashton and compare DNA results against descendants of Thomas Southworth (including grandsons Constant and Thomas Southworth) (Minimum 67 markers, possibly upgrade to 111 markers or Big Y-DNA). Identify living male descendants of Richard Southworth and his wife Imogene Aston of Clarborough, Nottinghamshire. According to the Southworth genealogy, Richard had ten children. Of them were a Thomas born 28 July 1583 and Edward born 12 April 1585. Visitations of the County of Nottingham  in 1569 and 1614: - https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002005263265&view=2up&seq=130

Richard Southworth who married Imogene Aston was the son of Richard Southworth of Clarborough who married Emma Levesey. Richard and Emma’s son Robert is named in the visitation books along with his children. Going through Richard’s line to find living male descendants may be a good way to test this line.

Additionally, I am looking for direct male lineal cousins who descend from Moses Southworth (1835-1887) - my last direct lineal male descendant - who are interested in taking a DNA test and sharing it with the Family Tree DNA Southworth-Southard Surname project. Please let me know if you or others reading this post are interested in collaborating.

by Kathryn Smith G2G Crew (510 points)

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