was Isabel Lovel (born 1310?) daughter or granddaughter of John Lovel (b. 1252)

Question

Isabel Lovel (b. ca. 1310) was married to William Calthorpe.  Wikitree presently has Isabel as a daughter of John Lovel (1252-1310) ( http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lovel-19 ).

      I have Isabel as a daughter of John Lovel (1288?-1314) ( http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lovel-29 ), and therefore a granddaughter of Lovel-19.

      So which is correct??

Comments

Sources would help.

She has additional problems. She died before the births of multiple of her children.

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Hi Jillaine,

       That problem will be resolved, because she actually died on 02 July 1349 (not 1338), apparently soon after the birth of her youngest child (Robert).  But first I want to find a really reliable source for that 1349 death date (lots of online trees show that date, but such trees are usually not considered reliable sources).

       More importantly, I want to find a reliable source showing that she was daughter of John Lovel (1288?-1314).  She would therefore be granddaughter of John Lovel (1252-1310), not his daughter as is currently shown.

      Actually the sources section of the younger John Lovel ( http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lovel-29 ) shows several sources by Douglas Richardson.  I suspect one of those sources by Richardson would have the answer to the parentage of Isabel (Lovel) Calthorpe.

             ------------Ken

P.S.  I just looked at the "See also" source (Marlyn Lewis) for the younger John Lovel ( http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p357.htm#i10727).  It shows Isabel as his daughter, and the sources given are those Douglas Richardson books.  

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UPDATE:  The Biography section for Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe says that she was "daughter and heir of John Lovell by his wife the daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere."  That would mean that Lovel-19 is not her father, because his supposed wife (Unknown Strange; Strange-514) was NOT the daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere.

         -------------Ken

P.S.  I also discovered that Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe was not the Isabel who died on 02 July 1329.  It was actually her sister-in-law, Isabel (Harcourt) Lovell (profile Harcourt-433) who died on that date.  So it is still uncertain when Isabel Calthorpe died.   

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Kenneth,

I edited your post to tag it with 'euroaristo'.  Please be sure to use that tag when you're posting about these 'historically significant ancestors' so that the European Aristocrats project members are notified of the post and have a chance to respond.

Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project - British Isles 742-1499

Answer 1

Additional research indicates that Isabel was granddaughter (not daughter) of John Lovel (1252-1310).  Two more sources (and more discussion) have been added to her profile, and she has been connected to the correct parents. One of the sources is a posting by Douglas Richardson, but it would be nice to have one of his published books as an additional source.

Answer 2

Kenneth,

I've used Jim Weber's website for years and years, as he closely follows the Gen-Medieval postings.  On his website, for Isabel's father's entry, he references Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, by G. E Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, 2000, Page: VIII:217-8.  Jim shows John's wife as Maud Burnell.  CP states the following:  "He married Maud, eventually heir of her brother, Edward BURNELL [LORD BURNELL and daughter of Sir Philip BURNELL, of Acton Burnell, by Maud, sister of Richard (FITZALAN), EARL OF ARUNDEL, and daughter of John FITZALAN. She was aged 25 in 1315. He died 24 June 1314, being killed at Bannockburn. His widow, Maud, was suing for her dower in February 1314/5. She married, before 4 Dember 1315, and without the King's licence, Sir John DE HAUDLO, who died 5 August 1346. She died before 17 May 1341."

As such, Isabel is daughter of Maud Burnell.  I'll make the change on the profile.

Darlene

Answer 3

Can't see any support for either of the Strange marriages, offhand.

And you have to watch Marlyn Lewis.  There can be a forest of Richardson citations, with an unsourced parentage sneaked in.

Looking at the blurb here, which is extracted from Richardson

http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p357.htm#i10727

it doesn't mention Isabel.  She's listed under Children, but the only source is the old 2004/5 one-volume PA.

The implication is that Richardson has dropped the line from all the 2011/13 books.  This seems to be confirmed by the Google previews, so far as it's possible to tell.

 

Comments

Yes I think we have no proof that Isabel is the daughter of either of the John, Lord Lovel of Titchmarsh.

The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed, Vol 8, pp 217-18 doesn't mention Isabel or Isabella at all.  The heir of John Lovel, who died at the Battle of Bannockburn according to the Inquisitions post mortem, was his daughter Joan, aged 2 or 2 and more (the judges not seeming to know about his posthumous son, born in September 1314) - see here  and here 

It's possible that Isabel is a younger daughter, born in about 1313, but without any mention it's obviously difficult to say for sure.

The ancestry of William Clopton of York County, Virginia has absolutely no sources for the statement, "Isabel, daughter and heir of John Lovell by his wife the daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere".  Even if it was true, then it must be a totally different John Lovell, because we know that she wasn't the heir of either of John Lovel, father and son, we are discussing.

I think we need to find more sources that mention her to know for sure.  Even William Calthorp, on Wikitree at least, is without any sources and perhaps that is another avenue to try and find out more information.

 

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Hi John and others,

       This discussion is very interesting.  The first link to the Inquisitions post mortem in particular, which mentions land at Dokkyngg held of Walter Calethorpe.  I would guess offhand that this is Walter Calthorpe the father of William Calthorpe who married Isabel.  If so, at least it documents a connection between these Calthorpe and Lovel families.

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Blomefield on Lovels of Docking

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol10/pp362-370

 

 

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RJ, I agree re: le Strange.  I've detached her from John Lovel.

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With regard to William Calthorpe, Hugh Bradley's site lists the following references for him:

• ¹Blomefield, Francis, An Essay towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk (London: W. Bulmer and Co., 1805-10.), Los Angeles Public Library, Gen 942.61 B653 folio.

  ²Carr-Calthrop, Christopher William, Notes on the Families of Calthorpe & Calthrop in the Counties of Norfolk and Lincolnshire (London: s.n., 1933.), p. 30, Family History Library, 929.242 C138c.

  ³Rye, Walter, The Visitation of Norfolk, ...by William Hervey, Anno 1563, ...and also the Visitation ... by John Raven, Anno 1613 (London: Harleian Society, 1891.), p. 65, Family History Library, 942 B4h v. 32.

  ⁴The Genealogist, n.s., vol. 16 (1899), London: George Bell and Sons., p. 41, Los Angeles Public Library.

  ⁵Wrottesley, George, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls (London: Harrison, 1905. FHL BRITISH Film #990,070 Item 1.), pp. 19, 558, Family History Library.

I don't have time to look at/for these, but perhaps someone else will...

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What's Hugh Bradley's site?

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John, it's his personal site which he hosts on Rootsweb.  The page with William Calthorpe is here:  http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hwbradley/aqwg1761.htm

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Well that solves one mystery - the statement in the Clopton book is from Rye's Visitation book

https://archive.org/stream/publicationsofha32harluoft#page/64/mode/2up

What's in the book is a compilation by Mundy from 3 visitations and presumably other stuff as well, because it's got 15 generations of Calthorpes.

There's another edition of the 1563 Visitation but it's got nothing that early.

PS except, the Rye book doesn't say "heir".

 

Answer 4

Thanks to RJ Horace and Darlene for finding the source containing the pedigree chart which shows Isabel's mother was a daughter of Lord Strange of Blackmere. Therefore I would suggest changing her mother back to Strange-93.

https://archive.org/stream/publicationsofha32harluoft#page/64/mode/2up

 

The Complete Peerage correctly states that John Lovel was married to Maud Burnell.  However, that does not mean that he didn't have a first wife (unknown Strange).  IMPORTANT QUESTION:  Or is it possible that John Lovel and Unknown Strange were never married, which would make Isabel illegitimate.  That would explain why Joan was the heir, rather than Isabel. That might also explain why the first name is not given for Unknown Strange in the pedigree mentioned above.

Comments

Ken, I think you have added the daughter of Lord Strange prematurely, as there still seems to be little proof of her existence.

I also think Isabel being an illegitimate daughter would be next to impossible.

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It is hard to imagine why William de Calthorpe, heir to several generations of landed Calthorpes, would marry a woman with no significant property to bring to the marriage. My suspicion is that William de Calthorpe's wife really was the daughter of a man named John Lovell, but that Blomefield, writing in or before 1807, simply erred by jumping to the conclusion that this must have been one of the Johns Lovell/Lovel of Titchmarsh. None of the visitation pedigrees say anything about where Isabel (Lovell) Calthorpe's father John Lovell was "of". I suspect he was a John Lovell unrelated to the Titchmarsh family.