Would a pre-1500 member change Lewis Clifford's birth year to 1399?

+4 votes

Lewis Clifford was born in 1399, not 1484.

See the following published genealogy: [[1]]

The date is also available on the following: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rmjllj&id=P18231

His marriage to Anne Moleyns has been published in books, but the books fail to list his birth year.

[[http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/CLIFFORD.htm#Lewis CLIFFORD2]] gives more details on the Clifford family, lists Lewis's death date as before his father's 1438 death date; however, it doesn't list Lewis's birthdate.  It has the same marriage date as listed on [[Clifford-1582]].

WikiTree profile: Lewis Clifford
in Genealogy Help by David Hughey G2G6 Pilot (634k points)
edited by David Hughey

1 Answer

+2 votes
Best answer

1399 is probably pretty close to a real birth year, but can you provide better sources for this Clifford family?

The published genealogy link you gave doesn't work, and the personal tree link doesn't inspire confidence (it say his father was born in 1390).

If we make his birth date 1399 then we have problem of his father being born in 1424 and his son in 1504.  Obviously there are many more problems here than just his birth date.

The dates I do know are that his wife's parents were married in 1401 and she was likely born around 1405, making the 1399 date reasonable but not proven by any real document.

William Clifford and Elizabeth Savage did not marry until 1406 at the earliest (her first husband died late 1405).  So a 1407 guesstimate may be a better choice.  He died in the lifetime of his father (d. 1438) leaving a son and heir born 30 November 1429.  I can make that change but then he is supposedly the father of a Nicholas Clifford born 1524

Somewhere along the line we need to break it.  There are so many wrong dates within three generations of your Lewis Clifford that it is going to take some real work to sort it out.

Some of the dates I gave come from Richardson and some from here.

Please add the tag Euroaristo to the post.

by Joe Cochoit G2G6 Pilot (180k points)
selected by David Hughey

As I am not pre-1500 certified, I made some postings on the profiles.

Also see: [[http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/CLIFFORD.htm#Lewis CLIFFORD2]]

Given what you say about William Clifford's marriage to Elizabeth Savage, I agree with you that 1407 would be a better guess.  His younger brother John was born about 1408.

Alexander was the grandfather of Nicholas Clifford and not his father.  His father was another Lewis Clifford.  I posted a note on both Alexander's and Nicholas's pages.  So there are more than 3 generations in awry. 

While we're in the neighborhood, we've got William Moleyns's wife as Margery Whalesborough, and she's born to parents aged about 12 and 9.  Also, her son marries her sister.  You had to be a Habsburg to do that.
I fixed an number of dates for Lewis Clifford and his parents.  I also included a couple of sources, including putting the IPM of William Clifford on his page.

There is now a big problem in that we have Lewis Clifford dead before 1438, and having a son Alexander being born in 1504.  There are either multiple missing generations or he doesn't belong attached at all.

The parents of William Clifford need to be investigated - I believe he is the nephew and heir of Lewis Clifford rather than his son and heir.
OK, I inserted the missing generation, and changed the dates to match tudorplace.com.  I do not necessarily trust this source but at least the line makes sense now.  Better sources should be found.
This is actually a very good example of medieval genealogy since the line isn't generally well-known but the descent and dates can be proved through a series medieval wills (not that common), inquisitions post mortem, feets of fines, property descent, and Visitations.  If you really want to prove the line top to bottom, it should be possible.

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