Proper LNAB for members of the Cleves family?

+3 votes
54 views

Cleves? Clèves? Kleve? Kleef?

The people I'm thinking about are Henriette, wife of Charles Gonzaga and sister of Catherine and Marie. Also their father. They do not have a profile yet (unless they are there somewhere with an unusual LNAB), but when the time comes to create one, what should their LNAB be?

Thank you!

WikiTree profile: Marie Bourbon
in Requests for Project Volunteers by Isabelle Martin G2G6 Pilot (395k points)

3 Answers

+2 votes
Well, looking at the Wikipedia link, it looks like the version when she was born was the one with the accent.  Since we want, as LNAB indicates, the last name when she was born, that should be the version entered here. You might to check and see if they exist under another spelling by going to the Cleves surname and checking each of the related surnames (at the top of the page if I remember correctly).
by Dave Dardinger G2G6 Pilot (407k points)
+1 vote
Cleves is the typical English spelling of the place and family, close (as usual) to French Clèves. The French form could arguably be used because this family were by this time a French family, and historically they had long links to the French speaking aristocracy before then.

However, there is a complication that could be argued. The area called Cleves itself is on the border of modern (and medieval) Germany and the modern (and medieval) Netherlands (which was a looser concept in the middle ages). German and Dutch can be associated with the area, with perhaps German having a lead.

I think for this part of Europe, the families who had both German and French connections, each case has to be looked at, but in this specific branch of this specific family French maybe should win out?
by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Pilot (104k points)
edited by Andrew Lancaster
+1 vote
The descendants of Engelbert von Kleve are considered "the French branch of the family von der Mark".  He belonged to the court of Charles VIII, inherited the counties of Nevers (later a duchy), Étampes and Eu, and in 1505 becaome a French pair. It seems clear from all of this that de Clèves would be the appropriate last name.
by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (534k points)
Should this branch have a different spelling than the parts of the family who stayed more "German"? For the Edward III descendants project I recently looked at the family of Adolf von Kleve, currently Von_Kleve-18 in wikitree is the Edward III descendant. His father of the same name is Kleve-68.

And what about the lady who married Henry VIII?
It sometimes gets tough when people switched allegiances but I think with respect to Adolf and his son Philipp von Kleve or for Philipp perhaps von Kleve-Ravenstein makes sense because after all their different roles from Burgundy to the Netherlands, to Italy, to France, they ended up working for the emperor after all.

Adolf's father could be either von der Mark or von Kleve, maybe he is referred to as von Kleve because under him the county of Kleve was elevated to a duchy while Mark remained a county, so maybe von der Mark should have precedence since the elevation to duchy happened during his lifetime.

Anne could be von Jülich-Kleve-Berg since that is what her dad was called after he inherited and united the three duchies.

Kleve itself is a dynastic name given to parts of this family the same way as all the above names were given to branches of the family; the main dynastic name is von der Mark.
Well as usual I will defer to others. I would not mind allowing LNABs to change more than policy seems to demand, although I think there are different ways to interpret the policy.
By the way Anne is currently Cleves-6, so using the English version. Her father is Cleves-28. But his father is Von_Kleve-11.
I can only comment on German (or HRE) nobility but they did start using house and branch names as last names from the 16th century on so that I see some justification to treat their names the same as other last names from this time on.

We have numerous families in WikiTree where we do not follow EuroAristo rules: Take Lorraine for instance. The dynastic name of the ruling house is Vaudémont from 1473 on, we have them as Lorraine, even before they became rulers of that land, and later Lothringen, as in Habsburg-Lothringen after 1736. So it appears to be ok to change not only the names of branches but sometimes of whole families.

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